Goal to get a grant of COA

[Chas]

Another little clarification.

American citizens cannot get a grant from the College of Arms. Not their jurisdiction. What Americans (and all other nationals) get is a Devisal.

Is there a difference - well yes and no. Yes, in as much as the Letters Patent do not say the word grant anywhere, but say devise instead (grant and assign becomes devise and assign). No, in as much as everything else is the same - although it might cost more.

The scrivening (writing) is the same; the artwork is up to the same high standard; the seals are the same and so are the signatures. The process is the same, but the college might require a bit more contact. Sometimes this means you going to the College a few more times (if you are already in the UK), but more often than not the herald will visit you. This is where the extra cost comes in. With luck there is only need for one visit, but if you want the arms presented, the herald will do so in person and in uniform. Your expense again.

So there we have it - a world of difference and no difference at all.

Regards

Chas

[WVHighlander]

Chas,

Thank you for clarifying that point for me..... So that means a couple more years before retirement and my better half needs to make a lot more money so we can buy another home abroad. She NEEDs to get working on that!

All and all it is a very hefty expense. All three would cost somewhere in excess of $3,000 US.

[cessna152towser]

As one who has gone successfully through the procedure to obtain a Grant of Letters Patent from the Lord Lyon I have to say the process is slow and expensive and the Lord Lyon needs to be convinced of your Scottish pedigree.
In support of my Petition to be recognised as a Clan Cunningham Armiger (with differenced arms) it was necessary for me to prove that I was born and resident in Scotland, of good character, and also to prove a Scottish Cunningham pedigree going back four generations.
My Arms will pass to my daughter on my death but will only thereafter pass on to any child she may have if that child retains the surname Cunningham.
There are no real advantages to the status of having your own Personal Scottish Arms outwith the highland games circuit.
I know this is not the answer which you want to hear. Please do not take this the wrong way as no offence is intended. The last time I offered similar advice on another forum I received in response an extremely abusive personal message from the American gentleman who had asked for the advice who now complained that I was being snobbish and boastful because I had stated that I had succeeded in obtaining Letters Patent from the Lord Lyon where he was unfortunately not eligible to do so.

[WVHighlander]

You will not hear a negative word uttered from me in the least, I assure you. I have heard similar points from other people. Being an American I have been STRONGLY encouraged just to assume arms, register them in one of our more prestigious entities and be done with it. A point I can greatly appreciate, and may end up doing if all else fails. However, my reason for trying to receive a grant is deeply personal and can be highlighted by the motto I have adopted. "I make my own fortune." (Latin Ego planto mea fortuna. I think) It is a quote taken from a great Shawnee War Chief named Tecumseh whom stated the following:

"It is true I am a Shawnee. My forefathers were warriors. Their son is a warrior. From them I take only my existence; from my tribe I take nothing. I am the maker of my own fortune..."

I have had to make my own way in the world against all odds. At one point in my youth I was told I would work at the local limestone plant like everyone else and never go to the military, college, etc... I have done that and more, and I have done it by the sweat of my brow and the strength of my back. Also, I have been able to break the repetition of my paternal line and not followed a path of less than honorable living. So without going to much on about such personal trivialities I would like the grant as a start for a family I am creating that will have honor, work hard, and be upstanding in the community. Of course my family will be this without a bit of parchment and expensive artwork...arms and birth do not make a person noble. Only deeds, actions, thoughts make a person noble. However, the arms would be my way of challenging the future generations with my expectations.

[Chas]

Chas,

Thank you for clarifying that point for me..... So that means a couple more years before retirement and my better half needs to make a lot more money so we can buy another home abroad. She NEEDs to get working on that!

All and all it is a very hefty expense. All three would cost somewhere in excess of $3,000 US.

Oh yes, indeed!

This from the official website:

http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/232.html

Scale of Fees for the grant of Arms

The following fees, fixed by Parliament, apply from 1 April 2010:
Fee on Lodging Petition: £200.00 (The balance will be due when the Arms and draft text are agreed, and the Petitioner has been notified of the total amount.) Sterling cheques should be made payable to Lyon Clerk for HM Exchequer.
Grants and Matriculations of Arms to individuals

• New Grant of shield alone, with or without motto £1,364
• New Grant of shield and crest, with or without motto £2,106
• New Grant of shield, crest, motto and supporters £2,782 / £2,882

• Matriculation of previous Grant of shield alone, with or without motto £782
• Matriculation of previous Grant, including shield, crest and motto £892
• Matriculation of previous Grant including supporters £1,177 /£1,277
• Matriculation of previous Grant, with new supporters £1,573 / £1,673

Grants of Arms to commercial organisations

• New Grant of shield and crest, with or without motto to a commercial organisation £3,078
• New Grant of shield, crest, motto and supporters to a commercial organisation £3,754 / £3,854

I have highlighted in red the type of Grant that you would be interested in.

Then there is the cost of the land, or the buying of a house...

Regards

Chas

[Chas]

There is, of course the Irish route. How much of this is accurate I don't know, but I have been told that the Chief Herald of Ireland is issuing "Certificates of Irishness" (or some such wording).

Where a man can show that his forebears came from Ireland (north and south, I believe), but would not meet the criteria of a Grant. It is an official document; the person is named and some of his history is quoted; it is signed and sealed and is in every way official.

No arms, but still an official declaration of ones Irish ancestry.

Regards

Chas

[WVHighlander]

Chas,

I actually just conversed with a representative from Ireland's Chief Herald and they stated I would be eligible for a grant of arms if I could prove one person in my lineage of Irish descent. (In my case I have the Noland Family on my father's side who came from Ireland.) However, the proof of descent could be on either my mother's or my father's side and I did not have to carry the name.

However, the cost is still a lot. The cost for a new grant of arms from Ireland is €3,300 I believe.

[Father Bill]

Oh I should think that saving his life for the tenth time , might just swing the decision your way!

[Cygnus]

I have been told that a not insignificant portion of the fees to Lyon Court are to pay for the actual patents being drawn up and painted. Apparently, if you choose to have your ancestor's grant and your matriculation combined into a single document, you can save yourself a bit of expense.

I have also heard that Lyon can be a bit more flexible if the documentation of descent has been prepared by a professional genealogist who is of the opinion that the pedigree being represented is accurate as far as can be told from extant records.

In either case, and if you haven't already, I would discuss it directly with Lyon Clerk to see what you can work out..

[WVHighlander]

Today I may have found the link I am missing, if so I am going to submit my paternal line for another NSAR ancestor. Once its proved by their genealogists then I will submit that with my packet to Lord Lyon. The NSAR uses professionals to proof your lineage.