Process of Receiving Arms from South Africa

[Blackrose87]

Is there any benefit to having South African registered arms in America? Would it be illegal to display arms not registered in the USA, or is the registering only needed for when the arms are being used in South Africa?

[WVHighlander]

There are no heraldic authorities in the U.S. so as such one doesn't need to register arms in the U.S. In the U.S. arms can be assumed and used. South Africa also does not require a registration of arms, one can assume their arms as well, but a registration with the bureau provides the armgier with a written record of their arms as well as the expertise of the bureau's office in designing arms that do not infringe upon someone else's.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Is there any benefit to having South African registered arms in America? Would it be illegal to display arms not registered in the USA, or is the registering only needed for when the arms are being used in South Africa?

Not everyone can meet the standard of proof required for a grant of arms from the office of the Lord Lyon. Since almost all chiefs recognize arms recorded in foreign jurisdictions, even if those arms do not appear in the Lyon registers, those Americans who have English, Canadian, South African, Spanish, or Irish registered arms are free to display them on an equal footing with Scottish armigers. The same does not seem apply to those arms which are "privately" registered.

[SlackerDrummer]

There are no heraldic authorities in the U.S. so as such one doesn't need to register arms in the U.S. In the U.S. arms can be assumed and used. South Africa also does not require a registration of arms, one can assume their arms as well, but a registration with the bureau provides the armgier with a written record of their arms as well as the expertise of the bureau's office in designing arms that do not infringe upon someone else's.

...someone else's in South Africa. The South African Bureau of Heraldry does not confirm that arms registered with them are not used in other jurisdictions.

[WVHighlander]

Ken, I am starting to think you are an English teacher...!! I need to be more on my toes.

Actually, I have heard from the different heralds that it is almost impossible to guarantee uniqueness in arms. (Something that I am sure will diminish with tech since a blazon could be entered into a database and queried much like plagiarism on a paper.) However, from my understanding all the heralds strive to insure an individua's arms do not infringe on someone's arms that are registered with a heraldic authority. Even without a data base to do an immediate queries, the heralds do have records of arms and pictures that they can look through.

Additionally, the use of some aspects of the Chief's arms helps to make it unique. The Clan genealogist has been working or collecting all the arms registered to people with the surname Cochran....there is quite a few people. For the most part the Boar's head is used...with some exceptions of course.... but each are unique from the other. Additionally, I did a little work on my own, because I surely don't want something that is a knock off from someone else's arms. To do that I looked at the American College of Heraldry, Scottish Society of Armigers, Armiger's society of Canada, the society of England, Wales, and North Ireland,and also the recorded arms of Ireland...and many others sites. My main point being if I can do this as a neophyte, I am sure the heraldry office can do this with greater ability as the experts. Furthermore, I had to provide the S.A. Bureau with an ok from the Chief to use those aspects of his arms...

Of course if Jimmy Cockram saw my arms and thought..."Hey I like that I am going to use it in the US." And he registered it with the American College of Heraldry, no one would be the wiser. Furthermore, there would be nothing I could do about it other than calling him out in public.....who would REALLY care. Again it goes back to the point mentioned many other times....it is personal preference.

If I had my druthers, I will eventually have them registered in Edinburgh. However, I must underline the fact that I was so impressed with the knowledge, expertise, and responses of Marcel at the S.A. Bureau that I WANT them to be the heraldic authority that helps design my CoA and register it first. In this quest to get a grant etc. I have approached every English speaking College or Bureau, to include the American College of Heraldry. Firstly with the ACH I never received a response back...which doesn't encourage me to plop down $350 to register arms! I also never heard from England. My only beef with Ireland was the expense and the amount of work I would have to do to get back to an Irish ancestor. Finally, while I love Scotland etc., my big beef with the Lyon was the point of matriculation. This was a point I set out to them, but they are bound by precedence.

Sorry Ken...you got a little more in my rebuttal but you caught me at a particularly loquacious time.

[SlackerDrummer]

Ken, I am starting to think you are an English teacher...!! I need to be more on my toes.

No, just a humble civil servant, though I do often tell my son, "Words have meanings and it's important that the words you use convey what you want to say." Of course on the other hand, I also occasionally have to plea, "Listen to what I mean, not what I say."

I didn't point that out, though, to correct you, but to point out that any heraldic authority's...well, authority only reaches as far as it's own borders. There are identical arms born in England and in Scotland, so it's silly to think that there isn't some overlap in countries divided by much greater distances. Most of the duplication predates the unification of the countries, but relatively recently Lord Lyon granted a coat of arms that is identical to a very old coat of arms in England. And quite simply put, it was a copy rather than an accident. Even so, it did not duplicate any Scottish arms, so there was no breach of law. All that said, your arms do appear to be unique and I'd be very surprised if they were not. Once you introduce a relatively new charge like the double tressure thistley, you're fairly well assured of a unique coat of arms.

(Also, my name is Kenneth.)

[WVHighlander]

Thank you Ken. You know the most interesting thing I found in looking at all the different arms was the lack of Scottish arms with bears as a charge. From what I have read, the bear not the lion was considered the king of the animals until the introduction of the lion. To me the bear has so much inclusive symbolism coupled with the fact that there appears to be very little use of a bear rampant in Scottish arms. Here is a very interesting article regarding bears and heraldry that you might be interested in...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

[SlackerDrummer]

The bear is a lot more prevalent in Continental heraldry, true. You might try typing these into your Google search bar:
"site:www.ngw.nl bear" and "site:civicheraldry.co.uk bear"

Enjoy.

[WVHighlander]

Thanks Ken. I had accidentally found the civic heraldry site once or twice. That was what amazed me....bears seemed to be predominately used for towns over people. (The exception being on the continent of course, like you stated.)

[Dram]

Thank W.V. for posting this. I look forward to following it.