Trog Log: Transforming a 170-pound weakling into a highland athlete.

[Alan H]

You mean make one? Ooo! How fun!

About your previous post--would you recommend NOT throwing all the presses into the same workout? It's what I've always done in the past when I was cycling into a heavy month (that sounds gross, but you know what I mean) except for the overhead press, the rep numbers suffer significantly by the last couple sets (benching 225 only 5 or 6 times for set 2 and 3, for instance.) The problem I forsee is getting proper rest periods in. Taking days off where I'm doing absolutely nothing feels good. Too good. Sometimes I decide to take another...

Look, it's our responsibility to give XMarks lasses something to drool over. Video = drool. Man up!

Hey, I ain't got no guns. Seriously, I'm not that strong. My current 1 rep PR's are.... flat bench, 245 -- backsquat, 325 -- deadlift, 385. I'd like to see flat bench at 265-275 --- backsquat, 335 maybe 340 -- deadlift 425 by next February. I'm the last guy to go to for specific lifting advice.

However, being an ignoramus has never stopped me, yet, so here goes.

Remember that the goal is not to bench press or squat or deadlift a baguzillionumpty-ump pounds. The goal is to throw a moderately heavy rock pretty far or flip a log in the air. That means you have to be strong and fast.

Little factoids about throwing that you probably never thought about and may be counter-productive for other sports.

1.) This is an "almost max effort for three seconds" sort of sport. Most people, if they truly go max, all-out in a throwing motion, hurl themselves into contortions like a boa constrictor swallowing a bolt of Locharron 16-ounce. Thus the ..."almost max effort".... maybe about 80 percent effort. The three seconds part is because that's about how long it takes to wind a hammer three times and heave it.

So that's what you want to train for...to be able to consistently put out 80% max effort into the prettiest-looking, most correct form you can, moving *really* fast, while being relaxed, for three seconds.

Doing a lot of super-heavy lifts at really low reps builds grunt-strength but it's counter productive, because "grunt strength" is slow strength. Sure, you can spend some time building that up, but y'all gotta do a lot of speed work to even it out. On the other extreme, doing lighter weight x 5,000 reps doesn't do you any good either, because you're not training for a three-second exertion time.

Guys with money to burn often buy these nifty units called "Tendo Units" or Power Factors. They tell you the wattage you generate when you lift. The idea is to maximize the power output in each lift.... and you generate more power if you move a moderately heavy weight, fast....than if you move a REALLY light weight superfast, or a REALLY heavy weight slug-slow.

So the key is to find a good number of reps and sets, and weight such that you work hard for a moderate amount of time. That said, there are innumerable solutions to this challenge, and lots of guys have very logical reasons for why their solution is the best one. I can't say what's right, I can only tell you what seems to work for me.

I try to do between 16-24 motions of any one exercise, in any one workout. That's my guide.
So 4 x 4 x 200 pounds....that's 16 motions. Good. 4 x 6 x 200 pounds...24 motions, good. More than 24, not good, I should have added a bit more weight. Less than 16, unless I'm specifically trying to have an easy day...not good, should have added a bit more weight.

I think of motions as being in groups. Like...we have a couple of bench monkeys in my gym. All they do is bench. if they're not flat on the bench, then it's inclined and then when they're done with that they move to a machine where they do the same damn motion, just that they're sitting up. When they're not pressing an Oly bar they press dumbells. A real change-up day is when they throw some flys into the mix. That's great, man these guys have big shoulders, but they'd suck as throwers.

With that in mind, look at your workout. You did basically the same motion....a press.... 118 times. Yes, some were overhead presses and some were incline but they're still a press.

But you didn't do no legs, man.... Of course, you deadlifted the other day, so that's good. Can't knock that.

PERSONALLY...and this is just me, not everybody does it this way, LOTS of guys have "legs day" and "gunz day", but PERSONALLY I try to do this...

Day one: a squat - a press - abs -a pull (because whenever you push, you oughtta pull, sometimes in there as well) and something else

day off

Day Two: A press - a pull - some other large motion like landmines or something - some other comfy stuff, whatever turns you on.

day off

Day three - a deadlift - a press - a pull ...comfy stuff

repeat......


so for example.....what will my first couple of "Day #3's" look like, come the first week of December when I'm just getting back into it?

dynamic warmup...walk over to the gym, five minutes on stationary bicycle

Deadlift - 2 x 4 x 185 / 2 x 3 x 225 / 2 x 2 x 275 -- easy peasy, but I'm just getting back into it...
some hamstring thing, probably
some abs thing
Incline bench - 2 x 4 x 135 / 2 x 3 x 155 / 2 x 2 x 185 -- that will be moderately hard
rowing machine or elliptical


How about squat day?

walk over there, stationary bicycle

backsquat ... 6 x 135 / 4 x 185 / 2 x 2 x 225 / 2 x 255
some abs thing
maybe something like box step-ups...get the heart beating
flat bench ... 6 x 135 / 4 x 155 / 2 x 2 x 185 / 2 x 205
some kind of pull...maybe bench rows 2 x 8 x 85 pound dumbells, each arm

[Alan H]

But this is just me, and lots of guys don't do it this way. LOTS of guys have "legs day" and "chest day" and so on.

My philosophy is that it all has to work together, so I might as well work everything, whenever I hit the gym, though there will be some degree of specialization on different days. I'm a thrower, not a bodybuilder. I'm a thrower, not a Crossfitter. I'm a thrower, not a powerlifter.

-> speed, agility (that's why soccer/rugby/lacrosse/basketball are good for throwers) and the ability to consistently put out 80% max effort, with good form, for three seconds...that's the ticket.

The goal of weightlifting is to increase the amount of power that 80% for three seconds, really is.

So here's the question. When you're a beginner, which will help you more - as in, help you throw farther on Game Day?

a.) increase the power output for that 80% effort, by five percent by lifting weights a lot

or

b.) Learn how to throw, by moving from power position to power position, and utilizing the basic throwing principles.

I bet you can guess. TRUTH: The reason that I do as well as I do is not because I'm a strong dude. It's because I reasonably-well grok the basic principles of throwing, though I SUCK at putting them into practice in the Stones events.

[Geoff Withnell]

Well, my training program in the gym will be a bit different. I work out 2-3 times a week in the gym, and once with my trainer. With the trainer, she spends an hour, having me do various and assorted things, which in her professional judgement will build up my core strength, balance and flexibility. Some of the exercises look pretty silly, but I have been getting great results - when I started with her I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. Now I can, if the ground is reasonably level (grin). What I was doing in the gym is what I call resistance or weight cardio. It is designed to build up working muscle, both for weight loss, "farmer" strength, and to create muscle that assists my heart. I have chronic atrial fibulation, which means the top of my heart (the atria) doesn't pump. According to my cardiologist, having strong skeletal muscles makes life easier on my inefficient heart, so he is in favor of my working out. It goes like this: 15 - 20 minutes of elliptical machine, running, stair climbing, something to get my heart and lungs going. Then a variety of weight excercises, alternating pushes e.g.presses, pulls e.g. rows, squats, lunges, etc. Each exercise is done as 3 sets of 15 reps, at the max weight I can complete the 45 rep in good form. I start immediately after finishing the cardio, and each group of three is done to this pace: 1 minute for the the first set, 30 sec rest, 1 minute for the second set, 30 sec rest, 1 minute for the third set, 1 minute to move to the next exercise, the object being to never let my heart rate drop. If a weight gets too easy, next work out, I add move weight, and drop to 3X12 on that exercise, and work up to 3X15 again. I run through every major muscle and motion group when doing this work out, tho I vary the exercise I might use for each. I'm going to keep this workout one day a week, and go for the explosive motion weight workout at least once a week. The other work out will be actually throwing (when I can find the place and time) or something similar.

[LitTrog]

What I was doing in the gym is what I call resistance or weight cardio. It is designed to build up working muscle, both for weight loss, "farmer" strength, and to create muscle that assists my heart.

Nice! That sounds pretty similar to the P90X program (a series of videos and nutritional advice) I used last year. I like the results, but it's good that you're doing some other stuff, too--I was pretty fit, but my stregth took a nose-dive.

[Alan H]

Geoff has more on the table than working out to throw far. He wants to keep his heart strong and lose weight, while also gaining basic strength. It's pretty hard to fault those goals! I know some meatheads who incredibly...would.... but that's their problem if all they can comprehend is deadlifting another hundred pounds. I notice that most of them are about 27 years old and think they'll live forever. A mess of them have already had two or three joint surgeries but the notion that their body is not like a Toyota, where when a part wears out, you just order a new one and have it installed, hasn't occurred to them.

So Geoff, go do your elliptical intervals and more power to ya. Alternating pushing and pulling ?? two thumbs up for that. Do your 45 reps of each movement and get a healthy cardiovascular system. You'll get stronger. It's all good.

Do what works. Myles Wetzel told me this a long time ago and he's right. Find what works for you, and do it. The basics of working some presses, squats and deadlifts, well...you can't go too far wrong with that as long as you use your head and don't go nuts with the weight. Don't blow up your knees or lower back. But man, you have to keep doing this for a long time, so it better be something that makes you happy, somehow.

And throw. Just get some gear, and throw it.

[LitTrog]

Remember that the goal is not to bench press or squat or deadlift a baguzillionumpty-ump pounds. The goal is to throw a moderately heavy rock pretty far or flip a log in the air. That means you have to be strong and fast.

So that's what you want to train for...to be able to consistently put out 80% max effort into the prettiest-looking, most correct form you can, moving *really* fast, while being relaxed, for three seconds.

Doing a lot of super-heavy lifts at really low reps builds grunt-strength but it's counter productive, because "grunt strength" is slow strength.

I've read your posts for quite a while, so I know this--I just don't think this. I still think I need to get my raw power to an insane level, even though I know better. Trunk rotation and speed and timing are key, right? I get it, and it might just be sinking in, finally.

With that in mind, look at your workout. You did basically the same motion....a press.... 118 times. Yes, some were overhead presses and some were incline but they're still a press.

But you didn't do no legs, man.... Of course, you deadlifted the other day, so that's good. Can't knock that.

To be honest, the total number was probably more like 100 but I grok. Looking at what I do now, I wonder why I reverted back to chest day/leg day/arm day kinda stuff. I had the benefit of a good strength coach in college--we were doing power lifts and Olympic movements every day with some chest and arms and stuff rotating in. I think since I don't have the bumper weights (and I hate going to the gym--hate waiting for my turn and get annoyed by people trying to chat at me), I totally stopped doing those movements and went back to high school lifting. The college lifting made me big and strong and quick. Got up close to 190 with less bodyfat than I have now. Of course, I was in my early 20's at that time...
Also, I haven't been lifting for anything other than general health and vanity, anyway. The races that I do don't require a ton of strength, except a good strength/bodyweight ratio, and I've got that. Lifting for throwing purposes will require an overhaul in my mindset.

My philosophy is that it all has to work together, so I might as well work everything, whenever I hit the gym, though there will be some degree of specialization on different days.

So here's the question. When you're a beginner, which will help you more - as in, help you throw farther on Game Day?

a.) increase the power output for that 80% effort, by five percent by lifting weights a lot

or

b.) Learn how to throw, by moving from power position to power position, and utilizing the basic throwing principles.

I bet you can guess. TRUTH: The reason that I do as well as I do is not because I'm a strong dude. It's because I reasonably-well grok the basic principles of throwing, though I SUCK at putting them into practice in the Stones events.

I grok, Valentine. So, instead of limiting my throwing practice to the 6-8 weeks out from the start of the season, I should be turning and tossing all year long (weather permitting)? Is that just for beginners or does that apply to seasoned athletes, too?

Thanks for this, Alan. Your time and interest and experience are wonderfully valuable tools that will help me figgur out all this stuff. I may not mirror your approach exactly, but I will definitely shift my focus to what will help me throw better.

[MacGumerait]

Tobus , there's a reason for the dreamy part . Lit Trog is not only the Chapter President of his local Contrarion Society , he is also Chapter President of his local Dreamy Society . Sorry Lit Trog , couldn't resist ! ( previous thread joking )

[LitTrog]

Sorry Lit Trog , couldn't resist !

Not many can resist my sweet cookie crunch and dreamy middle. Your apologies are unnecessary.

[Geoff Withnell]

Nice! That sounds pretty similar to the P90X program (a series of videos and nutritional advice) I used last year. I like the results, but it's good that you're doing some other stuff, too--I was pretty fit, but my stregth took a nose-dive.

Well, yes and no. From what I understand, P90X doesn't get into a lot of weight. The key of weight cardio training is that you use the max weight you can complete the 45 reps with, going at the 1 minute/30seconds/1 minute/30seconds/one minute/ next exercise pace. If you're not struggling to get those last couple of reps, you need to add weight. I was doing 80 lbs on flat bench when I started. I'm up to 160 now. Remember it's about doing the reps with good form and control. My max press is running about 250 these days, and with moving more to free weight is rising again.

[LitTrog]

Well, yes and no. From what I understand, P90X doesn't get into a lot of weight. The key of weight cardio training is that you use the max weight you can complete the 45 reps with, going at the 1 minute/30seconds/1 minute/30seconds/one minute/ next exercise pace. If you're not struggling to get those last couple of reps, you need to add weight. I was doing 80 lbs on flat bench when I started. I'm up to 160 now. Remember it's about doing the reps with good form and control. My max press is running about 250 these days, and with moving more to free weight is rising again.

You're absolutely right, although it can be tweaked a little to modify it into heavier weight. It relies heavily on bodyweight push-pull for some of the sessions (which I personally believe are quite valuable for general fitness.) What you're doing sounds better. Moreover, it's geared toward your personal needs (cardiac and skeletal muscle strength). 80 to 160? That's a helluva jump--sounds like it's working well for you!