A question.

[Steve Ashton]

Some of the members of the staff have cautioned that some discussions must stay within the confines of that potion of the forum where names and specific issues are not aired in public.

Some don't want to disturb this discussion with "The Word From On High". It is surprising how I, when posting as The Forum Owner, am so often misaken as making a proclamation.

But I do want our members to know that we are listening to you. I hope that we can find a way to give you some insight into what is being discussed in the Moderators section without revealing something best left in confidence.

I also want our members to realize that I do appreciate the sense of community that this thread is generating. We truly are a unique place on the internet. Our members can talk freely and openly. The staff respond and join in the discussions as regular members when they can. And together we can arrive at a solution to a problem.

Keep it coming. Lets hear from some of you that don't post often or who would never use a report out of some sense of 'telling tales'.

Now is your chance to join your community, to have your voice heard and to have good, solid input into the decision that will be reached.

[MNlad]

But the problem is, as mentioned, with enforcement. This idea that no rules will be enforced unless a member complains will naturally lead to only selective enforcement. One poster can freely discuss his weapon project while another will be quickly shut down, and it depends solely on whether some anonymous complainant decides to report it. This seems patently unfair to those who wish to discuss their kilt-related items. They cannot know whether they'll be mod-slapped or not, since it's the membership (and not the mods) who initiates the process.

Well put, Tobus.

With a diverse membership, it's only natural that some members are much more sensitive to this issue than others. To those who are, may I remind you that a post is just like one channel on the TV—there are hundreds of others out there and you can switch to another one (post) with a click of your mouse. Perhaps we should have post warnings, "WARNING: The following post contains information on an itsiy bitsy knife you stick in your sock." Just kidding.

Personally, I find a well crafted edged weapon/tool fascinating. I feel the same way about many firearms, but I do not wish to impose my preference on others, nor do I appreciate others with the opposite view imposing their ethical/moral stance on me. That said, there are other outlets for such discussions outside of XMTS, and I accept that.

Where firearms and history meet and are related to the kilt (highland regiments, historical events, reenactments, etc.) I think it's part and parcel of Scottish/kilted heritage and makes for most interesting discussions. I fail to see it's relevance to the modern debate over firearm ownership or use. What was, was.

I feel the same way about edged creations by many of the do-it-yourselfers who have posted here. They are to be congratulated on their craftsmanship and creativity. And, yes, these sgian dubhs and dirks are an important part of the heritage associated with the kilt.

Deep breath. . .There, I feel better.

Now, about some of those hideous sporrans that were posted a couple of months ago, MODERATORS, there ought to be a rule.

[Jock Scot]

Thank you Steve for asking opinions on this thorny matter. I have to say that getting a consensus will not be an easy task and we could well be discussing this question in a years time, if we are not careful. You are quite right though and you could not be any fairer than asking the members, particularly the low profile ones, for their thoughts and hopefully a solution might emerge to this ongoing rule 11 saga.

Now can you help us to help you? As you know the possible solutions to all this will be many and various, but to avoid any misunderstandings and time waisting can you let us know EXACTLY where you as the owner of this website are going to put your own boundaries on this matter? In other words, just what will you accept, what are you prepared to consider and what are you not prepared to consider under any circumstances. OK, we all know this is a kilt website although, we might forget that on occasion and it is your intention to keep it so and I for one respect and applaud that. However, it is the "wriggle room"that does need some attention for the betterment of this website in general and the members in particular. I also fully recognise the fact that if we want to talk all day for days on end about the finer points(sorry!) of some modern, or historical weapon or other, then this is not going to be the place to do it. So can you help us with your thoughts, please?

[Dale Seago]

Where firearms and history meet and are related to the kilt (highland regiments, historical events, reenactments, etc.) I think it's part and parcel of Scottish/kilted heritage and makes for most interesting discussions. I fail to see it's relevance to the modern debate over firearm ownership or use. What was, was.

I feel the same way about edged creations by many of the do-it-yourselfers who have posted here. They are to be congratulated on their craftsmanship and creativity. And, yes, these sgian dubhs and dirks are an important part of the heritage associated with the kilt.

That's how I feel about it too.

[Steve Ashton]

Thank you Jock for your comments and thank you for asking.


As many of you know, I served for 20 years in the military. I cannot help but have an appreciation for weapons. They are how I made my living. I also appreciate some weapons as pieces of art.

As a born and breed American I also know about the US 2nd Amendment and the on-going debate in the US over gun ownership, concealed carry laws, and hunting rights.

But these are issues that are regional. US law does not apply in Canada where I currently live. Many of the members here do not live in the US and each of their countries have their own laws.
As the owner of a forum with an international membership I must be just as receptive and respectful to those members.

My stance on weapons has nothing to do with my personal feelings or beliefs about weapons. It comes from 10 years as a member of this forum and seeing the problems that arise when certain topics are discussed.

In the days when there were no rules on X Marks we had about every type of post and pic imaginable on the forum. Some got fed up with these and left. Some left in disgust. The only result of these posts were anger and hostility.
In a few cases this anger and hostility spilled over from the forum into members' personal lives. (yes, threats have been made to members via PM and email.)



So, let me outline my own personal limits about this issue.

1) I firmly believe that discussion and argument over the laws of any one country or region should not be part of an international kilt forum. This includes, the US "Right to bear arms". I do not bring my own stance on these local issues to the forum and I do not believe that they should be discussed at all on an international forum.
In past years it was not uncommon for almost any post about a weapon, of any kind, however innocent on the part of the OP, to quickly be turned into a heated argument about "the right to bear arms". Some of our members are passionate on both sides of the gun rights issue. Some felt the need to make their views known at every opportunity. They are sure that their rights are those that should be shared and embraced by everyone and they took every opportunity to attempt to say so.

2) I would prefer if discussions on hunting were not a part of this forum. My main reason is the same as above. Local laws governing hunting and hunting "rights" are not universal or international.
There is also the fact that if hunting, you are probably not dressed in a kilt.
Finally there are the 'trophy pics'. Not everyone wants to see pics of someone peering through the hole in a deer that their new rifle can leave (some like this were actually posted to the forum) nor pics of other dead animals.
To me it is not the weapon that is the issue here. An arrow can kill just as surely as a firearm. I just cannot remember a case where hunting has been shown to have a place on a kilt forum.

3) I do not care if your local laws allow you to conceal a weapon under your kilt. Again, it is a local issue. It becomes an issue of the forum when a member displays the 13 guns and knives he conceals under his kilt. This was actually done, I'm not making this stuff up. This member felt that it was his right to defend himself and to do so he needed to be always armed. He also believed that it was his responsibility to convince everyone to do the same.

4) The right to self defense is another local law issue. I'm sure you have all heard the urban myth that if you shoot a burglar and they fall dead outside your house that you should drag them inside before you call the police. Again, a matter of your local laws and not a topic for this forum.

5) And finally there is the issue of discussion of the weapons themselves outside of their being accessories to a kilt. There have been some who have said that one current case was unfair because a firearm was found as a violation when a sword was not. Well, the truth is that the posts that were found in violation were only about the weapon itself. It was the part of our current rule 11 that states "( - may be exempt as long as the discussion does not become about the weapon itself or its use.)" that was found to be the violation. Gratuitous posting of weapons seems to be most commonly used when someone attempts to direct the thread onto their "rights".


I'm not anti weapon. I'm also not pro weapon. I simply own a kilt forum with an international membership. My goal is to keep the forum enjoyable, pleasant and respectful for everyone . To achieve this I need to insure the forum is kept international in its scope and not allow any one local law or belief to take sway or become dominant.

And I will do anything in my power when one member threatens another for a different belief or opinion.

[Mael Coluim]

A question.

Yes I have a brief question if I may.

And yes I have carefully read and reread all the rules of this forum.

I was hoping to view the thread "Brass 17th-18th Century Style Dirk" in this the sub-forum 'Historically Made Kilts and How To Wear Them' and see that it has been censored (if that is the correct description) because of this debate around "Rule 11 violation".

To my great disappointment it has been made unavailable for my viewing.

My question is this: Why is it permissible for items of the same nature to be showcased in the sub forum 'DIY Showroom' and yet not in this ones? Yes I read the contentious debate in the Jacobite thread and it is of my understanding that the thread must have reference to the kilt included within the posting. Yes that is very good as this is all about the kilt, yes?
But there are many treads over in the DIY kategory that do not konnect to the kilt anywhere within it's thread. One is left to inferr
that is to be used in conjunctions with the kilt in some way, yes?

An example thread from that sub forum which must fall into that kategory is this: "Sgian Dubh #3 in progress"

And if I can imagine that to go through that sub forum there would be many more of it's nature, yes?

So in summation, are all threads of this nature to be subjected to removale no matter where they fall, or just into this forum "Historically Made Kilts and How To Wear Them"?

I abhor the censorship of history or anything for that matter. The responsible adult is mature to pass their own judgement, yes?

Enough, I only would like to look at this "Brass 17th-18th Century Style Dirk".

Herr Doktor.

What Herr Doktor is asking for

The fundamental request that resides in Herr Doktor's post, both at the beginning and at the end, appears to me to be for information about 17th-18th century dirks. One assumes he is taking no prurient interest in the weaponry discussed or depicted in the thread: he may be making one himself, or buying or commissioning one, or perhaps he just wants to see how they are worn.

I trust that the moderators focus on that aspect of the OP. If it is possible (in the IT technical sense) for him to have private access to the removed thread, or to be directed to other sources of information apparent to those who do have access to that thread, then perhaps the membership can be spared yet another grassfire on Rule 11.

Peace be upon you,

Ian

Sorry for the short answer to the long questions, but here goes! I am only speaking for myself not my fellow moderators.

I was a member before I was a moderator and I will be a member when I am no longer a moderator. Before, my time as a moderator I understand the moderators felt they had to read every report to make sure it was acceptable. Now with the Rules we depend on you to report Rule violations under our 'Report a Post' Driven Moderation Policy.

The only exception to that is with the 10 post Newbie review. We review the first 10 posts of a newbie and have to approve it before it goes ‘live’ on the forum. After their 10th post, subsequent posts go live on the forum with no review by us.

Now, if in my reading a thread I see “what” I “think” is a Rule violation, I report it (just like you would do) and it gets reviewed by all the moderators in making a determination if a Rule is violated. Yes, I can move a post/thread to the Holding Cell or Cooling Off Corner, but all of us, moderators must decide by vote its ultimate disposition.

And actually this thread came to our attention only by another reported thread that commented on the Rule violation in this thread! I believe this is what Steve was referring to and why you may find inconsistency in what is acted on as a Rule violation because it is we the members who report it thereby creating what is objectionable or the inconsistency.

Now on the request to somehow (IT) allow Herr Doktor see the dirk in question, the OP of that thread when receiving the violation report deleted/moved the photos that the links in the thread were directed to. So, there is now no photos to be seen; only the comments of members about the dirk that cannot be seen now. Sorry.

And with you, Ian.

Ern/Mael Coluim

[BCAC]

Edit: Original contents deleted because all the points where answered in Steve's very clear post about how the forum and the mod system works!!

I'm sorry, I hadn't read Steve's post before posting here.

[Jock Scot]

Thank you Steve for your perspective. It may interest you to know, going on what you have just written, that we are not as far apart on this as some may imagine.

[Scout]

... Hopefully approaches to Rule 11 discussed here can provide further points for the Mods to ponder as they consider how best to phrase and apply/enforce the rule...

I don't think there should be too many "absolutes" to include topics that venture into non-historical weapons. For example, I'm a police officer and am practically always armed. I would be very interested in a discussion about how others deal with concealed carry when wearing their kilts. To my way of thinking this would clearly be a kilt related discussion rather than a discussion about weapons. I've not brought the subject up however as I didn't want to run afoul of Rule 11.

So, would this be an acceptable topic or not?

[Chas]

I don't think there should be too many "absolutes" to include topics that venture into non-historical weapons. For example, I'm a police officer and am practically always armed. I would be very interested in a discussion about how others deal with concealed carry when wearing their kilts. To my way of thinking this would clearly be a kilt related discussion rather than a discussion about weapons. I've not brought the subject up however as I didn't want to run afoul of Rule 11.

So, would this be an acceptable topic or not?

WOW. Maybe a re-read of post #25 would be helpful.

Regards

Chas