An unholy union?

[Nathan]

Does anyone know what the heck this is?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MacDonald-Cla...9d4929b&_uhb=1



It looks like a Campbell boar's head clan badge with the Macdonald slogan "Per mare per terras". Any ideas on how such a thing could come to be manufactured? Is this the "give peace a chance" clan badge?

[ASinclair]

Nathan,

I have no idea why anyone would do something like that. If it was an attempt at 'give peace a chance' I don't think it works. I understand your outrage, my friend (Glen Coe...).

[Chas]

As far as I know the boar's head (or variation thereof) is used by 5 or 6 different Clan Chiefs.

"Outrage"? Are there not enough things broken in the world today that need fixing, that we have to fan the flames of hatred for an event that happened outside of our control, in another time and another place?

[Jock Scot]

The assorted Scottish Clans have done really well, when all things are considered, to bury the hatchet in some far off peat bog and not in each others heads for the last couple of centuries. That does not mean that we should forget our history, but Scotland is a better place by far now, than once it was. Perfect? No.

On your point Nathan, considering what Clan MacLeod and Clan Donald did to each other over the centuries, I am surprised that you are even considering wearing a style of jacket that was worn by The MacLeod of MacLeod. Remember, what Clan Donald did to Clan Campbell after the Battle of Inverlochy. One must be a bit careful, if one wants to be consistant, where one pins their particular Clan loyalties to their histories, when wearing rose tinted spectacles, where Scottish Clans are concerned.

[Nathan]

The assorted Scottish Clans have done really well, when all things are considered, to bury the hatchet in some far off peat bog and not in each others heads for the last couple of centuries. That does not mean that we should forget our history, but Scotland is a better place by far now, than once it was. Perfect? No.

On your point Nathan, considering what Clan MacLeod and Clan Donald did to each other over the centuries, I am surprised that you are even considering wearing a style of jacket that was worn by The MacLeod of MacLeod. Remember, what Clan Donald did to Clan Campbell after the Battle of Inverlochy. One must be a bit careful, if one wants to be consistant, where one pins their particular Clan loyalties to their histories, when wearing rose tinted spectacles, where Scottish Clans are concerned.

Some interesting points raised.

Let me clarify that my "outrage" is strictly tongue in cheek. I have no actual animosity toward modern Campbells and enjoy speaking to some of them on this forum daily. This wouldn't be the place for that and to boil blood over an incident that occurred so long ago would be baseless hatred and the world will not advance if we don't leave lots of hatchets in peat bogs. I do engage in some good natured ribbing with Campbells when the opportunity presents itself but unless someone is being really insensitive regarding the history, I see no reason why we can't be the best of friends.

Certainly, most of Highland history was brutal. I'm well aware of our on again, off again feuds with the MacLeods, the MacLeans and even sometimes Chattan, especially the MacIntoshes, but Clan Campbell's role in Scottish history is rather unique. Its leadership systematically dismantled the power of it's neighbours especially the Lordship of the Isles and helped to put a lot of nails in the coffin of Gaelic culture for their own narrow benefit. It did so by taking advantage of the financial hardship of others and by becoming the muscle of the English in the Highlands. The thing is, the Machiavellian approach worked. The sons of Somerled no longer control Argyll, Lord Macdonald is a hotelier and the Duke of Argyll has titles as long as your arm and lives in Inveraray castle. But alas, history is never so simplistic.

We can't just blame the Campbells or anyone else for the downfall of our status. We have to account for gambling and alcohol addictions, the rash behaviour of certain Macdonald chiefs, backing losing horses, infighting and other factors so I don't want to overstate it.

As an aside though, unlike the usual horrible violence of that time and place, Glencoe was unique compared to Inverlochy because it was murder under trust. All that notwithstanding, there's still no reason to fan the old flames of hatred or to hold my contemporaries responsible for the actions of Glenlyon and his band of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Especially when we consider the roles that were played by the King, Duncanson, Dalrymple etc...

In fact, my local Highland regiment, The Cape Breton Highlanders, in which the overwhelming majority of soldiers carry Clan Donald names, are the sister regiment to the Argylls and wear the same uniform and kilt as they do. Ironic indeed.

I also have a strong compliment of Thompson in my bloodline. In fact, I have both an uncle and and brother named Thompson in honour of this connection. Thompson/MacTavish is closely connected to the Clan Campbell.

Regarding the MacLeod, my direct family comes from the Isle of Lewis so we've learned to live with MacLeods centuries ago. I also can't help it if the MacLeod was a snazzy dresser. The jacket looks good! The Duke of Argyll's salmon buttons are pretty enviable too while we're on the subject.

At the end of the day, though, Clan Campbell and Clan Donald are rivals. I don't think anyone should take that to the point of calling us "enemies" anymore and I don't think the rivalry should even approach anything like a UK football rivalry in terms of seriousness.

I'm not going to delve any deeper into the historic rivalry between these clans because this subforum is about heraldry.

Does anyone know the origin of a clan badge with a boar's head and the Macdonald motto? I'm honestly very curious.

[Father Bill]

A shot across the bow, fellows. Without real care, this could go south rather badly.

Father Bill for the Forum Moderators.

[creagdhubh]

Some interesting points raised.

Let me clarify that my "outrage" is strictly tongue in cheek. I have no actual animosity toward modern Campbells and enjoy speaking to some of them on this forum daily. This wouldn't be the place for that and to boil blood over an incident that occurred so long ago would be baseless hatred and the world will not advance if we don't leave lots of hatchets in peat bogs. I do engage in some good natured ribbing with Campbells when the opportunity presents itself but unless someone is being really insensitive regarding the history, I see no reason why we can't be the best of friends.

Certainly, most of Highland history was brutal. I'm well aware of our on again, off again feuds with the MacLeods, the MacLeans and even sometimes Chattan, especially the MacIntoshes, but Clan Campbell's role in Scottish history is rather unique. Its leadership systematically dismantled the power of it's neighbours especially the Lordship of the Isles and helped to put a lot of nails in the coffin of Gaelic culture for their own narrow benefit. It did so by taking advantage of the financial hardship of others and by becoming the muscle of the English in the Highlands. The thing is, the Machiavellian approach worked. The sons of Somerled no longer control Argyll, Lord Macdonald is a hotelier and the Duke of Argyll has titles as long as your arm and lives in Inveraray castle. But alas, history is never so simplistic.

We can't just blame the Campbells or anyone else for the downfall of our status. We have to account for gambling and alcohol addictions, the rash behaviour of certain Macdonald chiefs, backing losing horses, infighting and other factors so I don't want to overstate it.

As an aside though, unlike the usual horrible violence of that time and place, Glencoe was unique compared to Inverlochy because it was murder under trust. All that notwithstanding, there's still no reason to fan the old flames of hatred or to hold my contemporaries responsible for the actions of Glenlyon and his band of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Especially when we consider the roles that were played by the King, Duncanson, Dalrymple etc...

In fact, my local Highland regiment, The Cape Breton Highlanders, in which the overwhelming majority of soldiers carry Clan Donald names, are the sister regiment to the Argylls and wear the same uniform and kilt as they do. Ironic indeed.

I also have a strong compliment of Thompson in my bloodline. In fact, I have both an uncle and and brother named Thompson in honour of this connection. Thompson/MacTavish is closely connected to the Clan Campbell.

Regarding the MacLeod, my direct family comes from the Isle of Lewis so we've learned to live with MacLeods centuries ago. I also can't help it if the MacLeod was a snazzy dresser. The jacket looks good! The Duke of Argyll's salmon buttons are pretty enviable too while we're on the subject.

At the end of the day, though, Clan Campbell and Clan Donald are rivals. I don't think anyone should take that to the point of calling us "enemies" any more and I don't think the rivalry should even approach anything like a UK football rivalry in terms of seriousness.

I'm not going to delve any deeper into the historic rivalry between these clans because this subforum is about heraldry.

Does anyone know the origin of a clan badge with a boar's head and the Macdonald motto? I'm honestly very curious.

Very well said, Nathan.

[creagdhubh]

The assorted Scottish Clans have done really well, when all things are considered, to bury the hatchet in some far off peat bog and not in each others heads for the last couple of centuries. That does not mean that we should forget our history, but Scotland is a better place by far now, than once it was. Perfect? No.

On your point Nathan, considering what Clan MacLeod and Clan Donald did to each other over the centuries, I am surprised that you are even considering wearing a style of jacket that was worn by The MacLeod of MacLeod. Remember, what Clan Donald did to Clan Campbell after the Battle of Inverlochy. One must be a bit careful, if one wants to be consistant, where one pins their particular Clan loyalties to their histories, when wearing rose tinted spectacles, where Scottish Clans are concerned.

Well said, Jock.

[guardsman]

Football , only rivals ? Life and death , football is far more important than mere rivalry , mortal enemies in some eyes LOL

[Liam]

I post this only to try to add some humour to the topic, so please don't take offense: