What would you do?

[Riverkilt]

Late to this discussion. For what its worth - just my opinion.

I've seen two kiltmakers active on X Marks and at the time "respected" by X Marks, go out of business and keeping X Marker's money without delivering the ordered kilts. Gotta be difficult to decide up front who's honest and who isn't - things change. If there were an X Marks seal of approval back then both these kiltmakers probably would have been awarded it. Would have been embarrassing when they failed to deliver on prepaid kilts and there wasn't much X Marks could do about it.

I've also seen a respected kiltmaker on X Marks use a copyrighted tartan in their advertisements without permission of the tartan designer. That changed after the owner of the rights to the tartan got word. A deal was worked out AFTER they were caught. Is that ethical?

I happily purchase Utilikilt designed kilts from a non- U.S. kiltmaker - a true gentleman and well respected on X Marks. My reason is simple. Utilikilt doesn't make their design in the fabrics I wish. Its not illegal since the patent doesn't apply outside the U.S. And, I don't think its immoral or unethical since Utilikilts doesn't make their kilts in the fabric I desire.

Chewing on all this methinks its risky for X Marks, either as a forum or as the owner, to attempt to somehow regulate all the kilt related industries worldwide. One of the joys of this forum has always been sharing the best vendors and warning of the dishonest vendors. It ain't broke. I don't see the need to change from an open forum.

It is of course difficult to report poor service, no service, or fraud on any company...many have been respectful and brave in doing so....even withholding the name of the vendor. Withholding the name of the vendor doesn't help others.

Perhaps the development of a poor service reporting format that was respectful to all.

[AKScott]

Late to the party, I hit the "aye" button a few times coming through.

I only have one thing to add. I am not the only person here who experienced being a "have not" while working my way up to being a "have."

Now that I have a made in Scotland tank, I get it, value trumps price for me BUT - I also ordered a synthetic knife pleat in a universal tartan because wearing a kilt is so dang awesome. I don't even know which of the two synthetics mine is made from. If I am BBQing on the back deck or laying around the living room floor watching a movie with my wife that synthetic kilt is a nice option. In warm weather I wear it a lot, and don't have to worry about wrinkling it or spilling a bit of beer on it.

I think the rabble is very respectful of people who have a synthetic as their good kilt because that is what they can afford. I raised the issue for a different reason. Coming back around to the ethical side of it, if someone is making or selling inexpensive synthetic kilts, but going about it honestly and ethically, I think they should be welcome here. Or at least given a chance. We who own wool tanks know perfectly well synthetics aren't "just as good as", but they do have a star in the constellation.

[Tobus]

Chewing on all this methinks its risky for X Marks, either as a forum or as the owner, to attempt to somehow regulate all the kilt related industries worldwide. One of the joys of this forum has always been sharing the best vendors and warning of the dishonest vendors. It ain't broke. I don't see the need to change from an open forum.

I don't see that Steve is trying to (or could if he wanted to) regulate all the kilt related industries worldwide. Unethical behaviour is going to happen one way or the other. But Steve, as the owner of this forum, is in the unique position of deciding whether it will happen here, with his blessing, or not. If we choose to keep unethical businesses off of XMTS, they are still free to operate unethically on the web (or in person) for as long as they can get away with it. But Steve won't have the stink of it on this board, or associated with his name.

[Geoff Withnell]

I would like to put my two cents worth, on the issue of "re-sellers". I believe that businesses such as Stillwater perform an invaluable service to the growth of the kiltwearing community, by providing an inexpensive "gateway drug" (big smile there) experience to kilt wearing. I have several friends and relatives who are happy kilt wearers because Jerry's "Thriftykilt" allowed them to try it, for an investment they were will to risk. Heck, one could say that I am in that category myself. While I haven't worn a Thriftykilt in years, the first kilt I worn out and about was a Thrifty, and before I had tried it, I would have been unwilling to part with the money even a USAKilt Casual would have cost a gentleman of substance such as myself. Do we want the initial experience of such newbies to be with an unscrupulous vendor, or with someone such as Jerry? If Jerry had shafted me, there are a number of higher end XMarks advertisers who would have been out significant chunks of cash, as I may have well said forget it, kiltmakers are a bunch of thieves trying to profit from tourism and misplaced Scottish pride. Let us please stand by Jerry and his ilk, while maintaining high standards at all ends of the kilt market for ethical behavior.

BTW, essentially all countries you are likely to deal with, including China, Pakistan, the UK, USA, Australia, and NZ, are parties to the Berne Convention and recognize each others copyrights.

[Riverkilt]

Asked for my opinion, gave it. Your mileage may vary. Back to my cave.

[RockyR]

I don't see that Steve is trying to (or could if he wanted to) regulate all the kilt related industries worldwide. Unethical behaviour is going to happen one way or the other. But Steve, as the owner of this forum, is in the unique position of deciding whether it will happen here, with his blessing, or not. If we choose to keep unethical businesses off of XMTS, they are still free to operate unethically on the web (or in person) for as long as they can get away with it. But Steve won't have the stink of it on this board, or associated with his name.

VERY well stated, Tobus.

Ron - I don't think Steve's trying to police the kilt world. This website is a 'family' of kilt wearers and Steve may not want to expose our family members (especially ones who may be new to kiltmaking) to companies who are not up to his / community approved standards. Again, it's Steve's site and he can allow / not allow who he pleases for advertising. He can set the bar as high or low as he wants and was thoughtful enough to bring the question to the members instead of acting unilaterally on it.

It's not about censoring members... if you want to share good / bad experiences, I don't believe Steve would ever do that (though I admit I'm speaking out of turn as I haven't asked him directly). It's about who he allows to promote themselves in front of our members.

BTW, essentially all countries you are likely to deal with, including China, Pakistan, the UK, USA, Australia, and NZ, are parties to the Berne Convention and recognize each others copyrights.

Geoff, I agree with you 100% on the "gateway drug" thing. I also don't have a problem with kilts made in Pakistan by companies who disclose where the kilt is made (i.e. Jerry @ Stillwater or www.buyakilt.com) and who have their own accessory designs (not copied) and their own pictures. The issue with the Copyright one is another matter... The issue becomes: Just b/c you MAY win if you go after a company in another country for copyright infringement doesn't put off the cost and difficulty of doing it. Who pays that price? The one enforcing the theft of their design, NOT the thief. Therein lies the rub and the pity.

[Riverkilt]

I've no dog in this question. Was just asked for my thoughts and comments so gave them.

Does occur to me there's another class of kiltmaker - one with a fine reputation of their own making who is too busy sewing kilts to participate in the kilt forums -

Anyhow agree there's no future in "policing" the kilt world.

Bowing out now.

[PodKiDo]

This is a complicated set of questions. I also struck the aye button a few times. The Rabble has your back Steve. Your moral compass has served the forum well. The comments show we trust your judgement as the captain of this ship. :blimp:

[bluebonnet]

Steve Wrote|:
"How about copyrights and patents? As you may or may not know copyrights and patents are effective only in the countries where they are filed. It may not be against the law to copy a design of another company, with a UK copyright, if you are not operating in the UK."

While there is no one particular global copyright enforcement agency, there are several conventions in which the member countries and signatories can flex international muscle of copyright infringement.

The most extensive treaty/convention is the Berne Treaty signed in 1887 followed by the Universal Copyright Convention (Geneva) signed in 1955 by over 48 member countries, The UCC (Paris) was signed in 1974 as well the Agreement on Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Treaty of 1995 and finally the WIPO Copyright Treaty of 2002. China for example has been a member state in all of the above and therefore subject to them. Pakistan has signed off on all of them except the WCT and the UCC (Paris).

The only international treaty instrument that is still not in complete full force and effect is the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement - it requires ratification by signatories in order to become in full force and effect... only Japan has ratified the Treaty. (Ratifying is where the signatory creates domestic law to which the treaty/agreement is bound - as a little example of how that works, did you know that the Peace Treaty of Paris 1952 in the section that dealt with prisoners-of-war payments, showed up in Canadian law (therefore ratified) in the Pensions Act. Where the law is ratified is not always apparent which then tends to have folks believe that there is no means to enforce it.)

There are just as many International Patent treaties of which numerous member states have been operating under since they have been brought into full force and effect. For example: The Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property, 1884, Patent Cooperation Treaty (Washington) 1978, Budapest Treaty on the International Recognition of the Deposit of Microorganisms for the Purposes of Patent Procedure, (Budapest), 1977, Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (Marrakesh) 1995 and Patent Law Treaty, Geneva, 2005. Surprise, China has also a signatory as well as other member countries that are highly criticized for producing knockoffs.

In Copyright law, the onus is upon the owner to seek enforcement and stop the infringement. Therefore, the owner has to be diligent in their awareness of where their IP ends up. I'll give you an example, I found a local newspaper that used one of my paintings in an advertiser's spread. I didn't grant permission or arrange licensing. Under Canadian law, once I see that my copyright is infringed, I can simply send the offending party an invoice for its use. If they don't pay it, I can then opt to proceed with legal recourse in the courts. On average up here in Canada, an infringed copyright runs about 20k in damages per image/copyright item. I also found a t-shirt manufacturer making T-shirts with one of my images on it. I sued, they stopped and I got paid damages. It was a British firm.

If you want to know how serious some manufacturers take their IP and patents, have a look at the Canada Goose v Sears suit that is before the Courts (clothing and design is a big deal for the copyright infringement cases - so now is counterfeiting a brand) or the smaller suit of a prosthetic gel patent holder that stopped a larger manufacturer from using their formula... these cases are every day occurrences.

The biggest myth that I deal with Intellectual Property and Copyright is either the infringing party thinks they can because they are in a different country from the owner or the owner thinks they cannot protect their IP and copyright because the offending party is in a foreign country. Have a look at what L'il Kim is dealing with for infringing on a BC artist's work and using the image on her CD cover.

[Steve Ashton]

To all the members of X Marks.

When I first posted my questions I'm sure a few of you could guess that there was a specific reason why I did so. Well, yes, while I could not say so at the time, there was a valid reason I asked the questions I did and used the words that I did.

You answered my questions and the response was overwhelming that you feel that those who violate or infringe on copyrights and patents should not be advertisers on X Marks.


Starting early in January I received multiple accusations of copyright infringement against one of our advertisers. These we accusations only. There was no proof or documentation to back up the accusations so I could not act or do anything.

I have been in contact with the owners of the companies that were supposed to hold the copyrights. After a rather long delay I received copies of the copyrights in question via email today.

I then contacted the owner of the company in question.




Let me state for everyone so there is no mistake. I believe that the membership of this forum wish me to hold those who advertise here to a high ethical standard.
As this is a privately owned forum, the decision who will, and who will not, be an advertiser here is mine and mine alone.
I strongly believe that I owe the members of this forum the right and expectation that those who advertise here are companies that share the ethical standard you have expressed in this thread.


No company that is infringing the copyright or patent of another will remain an advertiser on X Marks if proof of the copyright or patent is provided.
If proof of copyright or patent infringement is provided and the offender refuses to remove the items I will cancel their advertising here immediately.