No longer a question specifically for Jock

[Riverkilt]

More than a million posts to date???

The expectation that those million posts would all perfectly follow the rules and what the moderators think follows the rules and what the moderators think the poster met - is an unrealistic expectation. We expect unintentional rules violations and the occasional troll - which is why we have moderators. A thankless job for sure.

I seem to post a lot. Despite interpretations of various moderators over time my posts have always been sincere and well intentioned, never malicious. Somehow I've survived...I've been deemed unworthy of the Order of the Dandelion, any Honors, and now sport a lifetime red card over a true and funny story. I've seen many I agreed with banned, or leave in disgust. Not with the board and the wonderful information shared and the fellowship enjoyed - but by the nitpicking mentioned earlier, and posters with positive intent deemed to have made malicious posts.

For me the core of this board - the information and ideas we exchange is of the highest value, so I continue to participate and learn and endeavor not to break any more rules and cause distress to the moderators and the owner. But still seem to without intent. But I'm sure any moderator can share my list of transgressions.

A member just can't post a lot without some moderator interpreting a rules violation sooner or later - even if there is no intent to violate and the poster is well versed in the rules.

What I think is more important than the rules is how the moderators respond to presumed rules violations. How heavy is the hand of the moderator team. When so many "popular" members are confronted over time, and none had evil intent, but the moderator team believes only their explanation, not the posters "What???" response, that's when members drift away from the forum, or quit, or are banned. I enjoyed this board much more back when there was a looser hand on the reins. And the board survived well.

We've had about 25,000 members over time...how many are still active? Why have they left?

What I'd like to see on this thread is some input from members who are also advertisers. Advertisers pay for access to this place where prospects for kilt goods assemble. How do they feel about the current rules and rules monitoring?

Bottom line, this is Steve's forum. He owns it and has the right to direct it, and its moderation, as he sees fit. The moderators have a thankless job. They take the heat and have responsibility for protecting Steve's investment. We, and the advertisers, make our choice as we see fit. Me, despite the misunderstanding adventures from time to time, and my accumulated penalties, I choose to stay around until I'm banned...which I will hopefully avoid....

For those who don't know me, I am an intelligent, aware, adult with a master's degree and two professional licenses and three professional certifications as a therapist. Counseling is my second career for the past 21 years. Before that I had 27 years in corporate America and was a star sales and marketing dude for Honeywell the last 12 of those years. I have always volunteered...police officer as a young man, fire department crisis units, state prisons, federal prisons, homeless shelters. The not so fun places in horrible situations where someone needs help. I am 69 years old and serve on five boards of directors in my little town. It is difficult for me when I am talked to as if I'm a child, as if "I always" or "I never." I do love the kilt though and that love is enough to hang on.

[CDNSushi]

Looking back at how some of my comments have been misinterpreted and distorted by some really disappoints me. I'm happy to leave this alone, but I do feel that I should make a couple of clarifications.

First, I take strong issue with any comparison of my comments in the other thread to those that have been attributed to Henry Ford. There is a vast, VAST world of difference between saying that you can have any colour you want as long as it's black, and being allowed to discuss any topic as long as it fits in within the rules. And if you have trouble seeing the distinction between the two, then I would suggest that it's because it's because you are choosing to narrow your vision thusly. I provided a fairly comprehensive LIST of all the different things that could be discussed here and where (everything from celtic music to food and drink in the pub, to jokes and humour, etc). That is HARDLY limiting of choice.

But no, seriously people. If it's causing you THAT much grief that you truly can't stand being able to keep your political and religious opinions to yourself on this site, then maybe it really is time to graze to greener pastures. I just don't get the problem here. No one is saying that all you have to do is drone on about kilt hose colors and pleating styles. But of course, through the clever use of hyperbole, oversimplification, and moaning about it until you start to actually believe it, makes it a lot easier to convince yourself and others. Seriously! Sometimes I feel like I'm in a room with a child with a room full of toys but that won't stop crying because he can't have a pony!

Second, it may be pointless of trying to convince some people of this no matter what is said, but if anyone thinks that there is a conspiracy at play intended to silence certain individuals, let me assure them that most of us have far, far, FAR better things to do all day than to dream up ways to censor an online kilt forum. I am reminded of when I worked at the phone company and an old lady was CONVINCED that her phone line was being tapped by her condo association in conjunction with the illuminati because they didn't like the books she had been reading.

[Jock Scot]

Sushie.

It was me that made the comment in jest that made the comparison, although it was not a specific comparison comparing like with like I thought, more like a Henry Ford-esque type description. However, as you have taken exception to it, then let me apologise for making the comment forthwith. I was trying to lighten( even with the inclusion of a smiley) the then conversation and obviously I failed, for which I am sorry.

[BCAC]

Nathan's warning that posting about Celtic Music in the Celtic music forum was inappropriate if it had nothing to do with the kilt or that the History and Heritage sub-forum was not meant for the history and heritage of the Highlanders, Scots, or Celts, but rather the History and Heritage of the kilt is over moderating. I myself was given a warning because of a "potential problem"??? when I commented about a kilt, on a kilt forum (and not in the "for sale" sub-forum where it's not allowed (don't know why, but them's the rules)). It's too much.

I find now that I have to be very "politically correct" in my postings on here or I run the risk of upsetting people, when really all that I am doing is expressing my opinion.

CDNSushi provided his fairly comprehensive list of all the different things that could be discussed here and where and he says that is HARDLY limiting of choice, but, if you look at Nathan's warnings quoted above then it really IS limiting.

We need moderation. We also need to be able to freelly express our opinions. Hard line to draw.

Moderation should be neither too hard nor too 'slack' (for want of a better word).

Edited to add: Too much/too hard "moderating" is driving good members away from this site.

[BCAC]

Looking back at how some of my comments have been misinterpreted and distorted by some really disappoints me. I'm happy to leave this alone, but I do feel that I should make a couple of clarifications.

First, I take strong issue with any comparison of my comments in the other thread to those that have been attributed to Henry Ford. There is a vast, VAST world of difference between saying that you can have any colour you want as long as it's black, and being allowed to discuss any topic as long as it fits in within the rules. And if you have trouble seeing the distinction between the two, then I would suggest that it's because it's because you are choosing to narrow your vision thusly. I provided a fairly comprehensive LIST of all the different things that could be discussed here and where (everything from celtic music to food and drink in the pub, to jokes and humour, etc). That is HARDLY limiting of choice.

But no, seriously people. If it's causing you THAT much grief that you truly can't stand being able to keep your political and religious opinions to yourself on this site, then maybe it really is time to graze to greener pastures. I just don't get the problem here. No one is saying that all you have to do is drone on about kilt hose colors and pleating styles. But of course, through the clever use of hyperbole, oversimplification, and moaning about it until you start to actually believe it, makes it a lot easier to convince yourself and others. Seriously! Sometimes I feel like I'm in a room with a child with a room full of toys but that won't stop crying because he can't have a pony!

Second, it may be pointless of trying to convince some people of this no matter what is said, but if anyone thinks that there is a conspiracy at play intended to silence certain individuals, let me assure them that most of us have far, far, FAR better things to do all day than to dream up ways to censor an online kilt forum. I am reminded of when I worked at the phone company and an old lady was CONVINCED that her phone line was being tapped by her condo association in conjunction with the illuminati because they didn't like the books she had been reading.

CDNSushi. You're defending the mods here, and that's normal because you are actually doing that thankless task. Of course we agree with what you are saying (if the rules are applied sensibly). Do you think that the warnings that I quoted in my above post are justified or are they over moderating and thereby limiting the free choices that you listed?

[McClef]

A reminder regarding expression of opinion:

Rule #8
– We expect our members to take responsibility for their actions. Attempting to excuse inappropriate behavior by claiming ‘personal preference’ or ‘personal opinion’ is not an excuse.

We are all bound by that and therefore we all need to think and review what we type. If something is reported or challenged then the Moderators have to follow the procedures without fear or favour or the assumption that something was meant maliciously by a poster.

We also observe confidentiality and will not name names. But it is frustrating when we have to deal with some individuals for the same thing time and again and that lessons have not been learned. We have, if anything, erred in not strictly applying disciplinary procedures in the hope of improvement. There comes a point when we have to because we are left with no other choice even when we know that some folk will imply that we are somehow the bad guys albeit in polite language.

We do our absolute best to apply the rules sensibly. X Marks is not a free for all forum, there are plenty of others out there where people can vent their spleens upon every topic under the Sun. This is also an international forum where what might be seen as fine and acceptable in one country is not in another. We are here for the interests that bring us together - the kilt and related issues. If people have constructive comments or suggestions to make they are always welcome but carping and sniping is destructive and unproductive.

[tripleblessed]

Looking back at how some of my comments have been misinterpreted and distorted by some really disappoints me. I'm happy to leave this alone, but I do feel that I should make a couple of clarification.

But no, seriously people. If it's causing you THAT much grief that you truly can't stand being able to keep your political and religious opinions to yourself on this site, then maybe it really is time to graze to greener pastures. I just don't get the problem here.

But of course, through the clever use of hyperbole, oversimplification, and moaning about it until you start to actually believe it, makes it a lot easier to convince yourself and others. Seriously! Sometimes I feel like I'm in a room with a child with a room full of toys but that won't stop crying because he can't have a pony

Let me open with a big thanks for the investment in time and thought you have made and continue to make here.
It IS appreciated, no matter how it might seem in light of some comments made here and elsewhere. I have often
been intrigued by your perspective, often bemused, and sometimes baffled. Thanks. And that's an honest thanks.

The first section of the quote was part of Jock's point in his first statement in this thread, and my intrusion next was to
support that statement of reality here. Not that anyone needs me to defend them, just that it needed to be said and
there wasn't likely to be a likelier spot. I know it happens to my comments a LOT. I had hoped to stay out of the thread
after saying that.

For the second part, you've made it clear you don't get the problem. That was clear from earlier posts in earlier threads before you became a moderator. That's OK. There's a lot of things in this life many, if not most of us don't get. The statement to shut up or leave was not well received, and I would bet by many more than interjected here. To have it repeated for clarity is bothersome, for me; bordering on intent to offend. If this was not your intent, I would beg for different, better wording. As it reads, it feels inappropriate.

The third part I have read and reread and reread and reread. I find no way to find that anything but condescending,
and beneath someone of your obvious intelligence. I have often thought I'd like to meet some of the folk here and
enjoy face to face interchange, and you are one of those people; not that I would expect most here would choose
me in that context. Perhaps in person, body language, tone of voice, and expression would give it a different feel, but
pulling it off the page it feels a little rough.

I've said before I'm not a tech-savvy person. I don't troll the web looking for lots and lots of fora to get involved
in, with smaller and smaller parts of my life. This is the only one I go to. Computers and the guitar are two things
I may never master, but I've spent a lot of years doing a wide variety of things with reputedly better than average competence, including teaching spirituality and brain science, especially as they relate to well-being, and handling the counseling associated with those efforts. I will say with confidence that limiting expression as suggested and such tight compartmentalization, is not conducive to good experience of oneself or of others. That said, I am not Steve. I don't have the burden here he does.

I will, as I have, attempt to observe the rules, and always to be civil. And continue to dream of a broader, better experience here that, sadly, I don't know how to construct. It's good to be here; I just want it to be even better.

[BCAC]

A reminder regarding expression of opinion:

Rule #8
– We expect our members to take responsibility for their actions. Attempting to excuse inappropriate behavior by claiming ‘personal preference’ or ‘personal opinion’ is not an excuse.

We are all bound by that and therefore we all need to think and review what we type. If something is reported or challenged then the Moderators have to follow the procedures without fear or favour or the assumption that something was meant maliciously by a poster.

We also observe confidentiality and will not name names. But it is frustrating when we have to deal with some individuals for the same thing time and again and that lessons have not been learned. We have, if anything, erred in not strictly applying disciplinary procedures in the hope of improvement. There comes a point when we have to because we are left with no other choice even when we know that some folk will imply that we are somehow the bad guys albeit in polite language.

We do our absolute best to apply the rules sensibly. X Marks is not a free for all forum, there are plenty of others out there where people can vent their spleens upon every topic under the Sun. This is also an international forum where what might be seen as fine and acceptable in one country is not in another. We are here for the interests that bring us together - the kilt and related issues. If people have constructive comments or suggestions to make they are always welcome but carping and sniping is destructive and unproductive.

So here we go, then, Trefor!

No names, no pack drill!

WE KNOW ALL THAT YOU JUST SAID AND WE ARE OK WITH IT!

What we are not OK with is things like Nathan being told that Celtic Music in the Celtic music forum is inappropriate if it had nothing to do with the kilt or that the History and Heritage sub-forum was not meant for the history and heritage of the Highlanders, Scots, or Celts, but rather the History and Heritage of the kilt, or myself being given a warning because of a "potential problem"??? when I commented about a kilt, on a kilt forum (and not in the "for sale" sub-forum where it's not allowed (don't know why, but them's the rules)).

This is not applying the rules sensibly. It's too much.

[Geoff Withnell]

May I point out that moderation only comes into play if a member reports a post? I have just become a moderator, so I really don't have a track record. But, trust me on this. The Mods aren't spending a lot of time looking for violations. I've looked back over some of the history, and a lot of fairly "gray area" posts just never get noticed by the mods.

[BCAC]

May I point out that moderation only comes into play if a member reports a post? I have just become a moderator, so I really don't have a track record. But, trust me on this. The Mods aren't spending a lot of time looking for violations. I've looked back over some of the history, and a lot of fairly "gray area" posts just never get noticed by the mods.

Geoff, when I see moderators giving a "shot accross the bows" it leads me to think that this post has not been reported but it is the moderators own initiative that fired the shot. Sometime the "why" is obvious, sometimes it is a mystery.