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  1. #41
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    "Sometimes I feel like I'm in a room with a child with a room full of toys but that won't stop crying because he can't have a pony!"

    You may feel that way. But, we are, in fact, adults.

    Playing the "you're acting like a child" card in any discussion is unfair because there is no defense against it.

    There is a huge difference between effective moderation and effective parenting skills.

    We have met the enemy and he is us. We come from around the World to meet and support each other on the kilt. What we bring with us is juicy and interesting and fun.

    For those that expect the World to be run their way and rush to the flag button....well, you can guess what I might say proudly to their face. I can't help but wonder who the most frequent flaggers are....
    Ol' Macdonald himself, a proud son of Skye and Cape Breton Island
    Lifetime Member STA. Two time winner of Utilikiltarian of the Month.
    "I'll have a kilt please, a nice hand sewn tartan, 16 ounce Strome. Oh, and a sporran on the side, with a strap please."

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  3. #42
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    I've not been involved in the conversation on the original "War Crimes" thread or this one up to now- but here are my $0.02.

    1) I have (if memory serves) only ever reported a single post / thread, and that's because this is a family-friendly forum and the post was wildly inappropriate and totally NSFW.
    The new member was banned shortly thereafter for continued misdeeds.

    Apart from that one occasion it's quite easy for me to simply ignore a thread or post which I don't care for. The grouping of topics in various subforums makes it easy for me to avoid areas
    I'm not interested in.

    2) That said, I do like that this forum is build around "The Kilt". Generally speaking I'd just as soon keep it that way. If I want to talk politics/religion/fishing/whatever there are other places to do so
    on the web.

    2a) Having said the above, I WOULDN'T mind seeing the occasional pic of chaps fishing rivers in the Highlands, whether or not they are wearing kilts- In the same way that a thread
    about Celtic music should be allowed to continue even if the musicians weren't kilted. These two threads are at least tangentially related to the spiritual home of the kilt-
    and I think THAT is what makes the difference. Shots of ruined Scottish castles may not have a kilt in them, but I'd certainly welcome them. I think it's safe to say that Xmarks members worldwide probably
    feel some attachment to the Highland home of the kilt, whether or not they are Scottish, and Subforums like "The Pub", "Celtic Music" and others are the perfect place for NON-kilt but Scottish/Celtic related topics.


    2b) Off topic threads are rarely of interest to me, that's not why I come here so I tend not to visit the area- But so long as the main 12 rules are followed (polite/courteous/avoid politics & religion) I certainly
    don't have a problem with non-kilt non-celtic threads.

    3) I don't envy the mods their job. It's got to be difficult walking the line between having the forum being an open and welcoming place and maintaining the rules- especially with the various sensitivities of
    the various members from all around the world. There have been threads that I'd shaken my head at wondering how or why someone felt the need to report something. Many of them come back after a cool-down.
    There have been posts that made my blood boil, but I wouldn't report them as, even if they might, technically, possibly, if viewed in the right lighting, violate the rules, I'm not personally much of a 'reporting' kind of guy.
    I just tend to ignore the posts from those individuals in the future.


    I know that some members feel over-moderated and there are a few occasions where I agree this might be the case- but overall I think they are few and far between, and nobody's perfect.
    I know some members have either become less active or left because of this perceived over-moderation. Some have been banned for (apparently) infringing on the rules.
    In general I think the balance the mods have tried to achieve has been good.

    We should also remember when we complain about the number of reported threads that we are chiefly complaining about OURSELVES, as one of the membership has taken it upon themselves
    to take offense at and report something which probably wasn't intended to cause said offense.

    The way someone says things might rub you the wrong way, but that doesn't mean it's reportable. You might not like what someone said or the topic of a thread, but unless it violates the dozen rules
    of the forum it's probably best to just ignore the thread or person (they make a special button for just such an occasion) and let conversation flow.


    ith:

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  5. #43
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    First off, I jumped into this thread earlier and felt that my post was inappropriate as the thread was not originally addresse to me. I waited for a bolder member to jump in first. I deleted my posts after careful consideration. Now that it has opened up to the whole rabble and I have given some days of consideration here are a few thoughts:

    May I remind everyone that there is a mute button? If you do not wish to see someone's threads, simply mute them.

    The Mods do have a difficult job and sometime they wipe bottoms, sometimes they kick them. We, the rabble, are truly, truly grateful for your DONATED TIME AND RESOURCES! Donating energy to a sometimetimes thankless task is a mark of good character. I salute you--even if we sometimes disagree.

    To JD: I agree with Ron. It was a cheap shot and respectfully submitted an apology would help, sir. I understand that you are exasperated and that the subject is trying the patience of many people. I, for one, apologise for any irritation that I may have caused you personally as a moderator.

    Regarding trolls: they DO hang around all over the internet. Their sole purpose is to harass, irritate, and sew seeds of discord. They are repugnant little creatures who should be disallowed internet access. They DO hang around forums a lot precisely because many people congregate to express opinions. Forums are easy pickings. Sadly, the actions of these folks is darned near unprovable and untraceable. There are folks out there that are virtuosos with their computer. Some of these folks are just lonely, bitter lone wolves. They are almost worthy of pity. Almost.

    Lastly, I see the flag function as vital but there might be some sort of public accountability. In other words, a flagged user should have the right to face their accusor instead of allowing them to scurry into the shadows like roaches.
    The Official [BREN]

  6. #44
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    It is now pretty clear that the original intent of this thread has been totally lost.
    What started out as a request for constructive suggestions to help make the forum better has been turned into a gripe fest.

    And while I’m sorry, the way it is currently going is not doing any good and I can’t see any good that can come from letting this drag on ad nauseum.

    What I have been reading over the past few day has been a lot of spin and very little fact.

    Well, here are the hard facts.
    While some members may say that they miss “the good ol’ days of friendly and lively discourse”, the fact is that what is referred to as “lively discourse” has never been friendly. It is a fact that what have been called “the lively” and “the juicy” threads are the ones with the most discord.

    It is a fact that in the past some members were treated poorly. I can remember the days when a member would be here one day and gone the next. This was done on the whim of one person. It is also a fact that that has not happened on X Marks in over 5 years.

    Today, if a member has a permanent Red Card, it can be proven that they also have a record of, at a minimum, four previous proven rule offenses. By proven I mean that the entire staff looked at the suspect post, contacted the member, discussed the issue, and a majority of the staff voted that the post was indeed a violation of a rule.
    In the past five years there has not been a single violation ruling that was not decided by a majority vote among the moderators.

    Some members like to throw around the term “Banned”. Well, it is a fact that no member of X Marks has been ‘banned’ from this forum in at least 5 years. The only way a member of this forum is forced to leave is through a long and difficult process involving a history of repeated rule violations.

    It is a fact that in the past five years only three members have had their membership revoked.
    In every single case every benefit of doubt was given and many instances were let slide for many years before it was voted that it must come to an end.
    Not one of these was for a single offense. In every single case the member had committed repeated violations,

    We have a single isolated case of a member from before 5 years ago who has repeatedly attempted to re-registered under a new name. This one person has been shown the door 9 times in the past 5 years.

    Some people seem to want to try and blame the “Raise a Flag” system that is used on X Marks. The fact is that it is not the raising of a flag that determines that a post has gone too far. That is decided only by the Moderators. In fact in about 90% of the times a flag is raised on a post the Moderators already know about it.

    It is also fact that there are very few flags raised. We have on average over 500 posts per month made here. In the same month we average one or sometimes two flags.
    The facts are that less than .004 of posts are flagged. And of those less than half actually get as far as a vote among the Moderators.

    It is a fact, that in the entire history of this forum, only 28 temporary Yellow Cards and 23 Permanent Red Cards have ever been issued.
    That is 2.8 and 2.3 per year. A long way from the over-moderation that I have seen claimed on this thread.

    I’m not going to close this thread because it will just lead to more claims of over-moderation.
    But I am going to tell you that if you want to complain about how this forum is run you should get your facts straight first.
    Last edited by Steve Ashton; 22nd February 14 at 02:36 PM.
    Steve Ashton
    Forum Owner

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  8. #45
    Phil is offline Membership Revoked for repeated rule violations.
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    Am I unique or is it a fact that the longer you are a contributor here and the more posts you make then the more likely it is that you will finish up in the doghouse over some misdemeanour or other?
    Is this why we no longer see contributions from the "good ol' days" members? Are those still here only on sufferance and afraid to stray beyond the most anodyne of subjects with the result that no-one really has any interest in what they have to say?
    There are few Scots left here nowadays for whatever reason and I wonder if anyone asks themselves why this should be? If, indeed, this site is intended to be principally for North Americans with no allowances made for contributors elsewhere then this should be made clear so that nuances, attitudes and other nationality-specific. differences etc. do not cause unnecessary offence.
    Strange as it may seem, we may soon see a kilt-oriented site which has no members who actually know anything about kilts and kilt-wearing beyond what they have read in books etc..

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  10. #46
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    I think whether something is a gripe fest or constructive criticism is in the eye of the beholder. I saw more than just griping. I think lots of members acknowledged that a) It's Steve's site and he has the right to make the rules and b) that the mods work really hard and we are grateful for the time and effort they give to this community.

    I thought Steve was brave for starting this thread because I thought he was honestly opening up the floor for the rabble to share ways to make this place even better. As asked, some of us shared our views publicly about how we'd approach things differently based on particular incidents and on our various perceptions of the status quo. I for one, thought this was a worthy exercise because it would help establish how active users feel about these issues. This type of feedback mechanism from customers* and users can be messy, but you can't manage what you don't measure and so taking the pulse of the active users on the rules was a wise move. I was also very interested to see how my own suggestions would be viewed by other members.

    Unfortunately, what could have been the start of refining or applying the rules in ways that could have worked better for the owner, mods, members and advertisers has turned into hurt feelings, defensiveness and what seems like a stagnated conversation.

    On balance, I honestly don't have a problem with how xmarks is run, but when asked for feedback, I'll gladly provide it.

    And although I find them interesting, also don't have access to stats about the site's moderation over the past five years and before. All I have is my own experience here, my conversations with the mods and my own ideas of how something great might be even better. I can't and don't speak for anyone else but my suggestions came from a desire to contribute to this community, not to malign the good work done by those that administer it.

    Once again, my suggestions were:

    1) To allow Celtic music posts in the Celtic music section even if the Celtic musicians don't wear kilts. (This one seemed to have some support)
    2) To allow the whole history and heritage of the Highland Gael, the Scots and other Celts to be discussed in the History and Heritage forum, not just the history of their textiles. (This one also had some support - from an advertiser, no less)
    3) To be a little more lenient on what we perceive as political and religious speech and, when possible, to flag the posts within the thread that go too far rather than the thread itself for having the potential to go too far. (This last one is trickier and I figured it was a long shot but it seemed to have a little support as well). I acknowledge that grey is tougher to define and administer than black and white.

    These are my suggestions, Steve. It's your fiddle and you can play it however you see fit. Unlike me you have the stats, the history of the site, the feedback of others, the input of advertisers, your own vision for the site and an investment to protect. I am one voice among many. I submit these not as gripes but as the honest suggestions of a stakeholder and member for your consideration.

    Slainte,


    Nathan


    *I acknowledge that members who get to use the site for free aren't really customers per se, the advertisers are. That said, our eyeballs and wallets are part of the product being sold and that makes us stakeholders after a fashion.
    Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
    Past High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
    “Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.

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  12. #47
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    Nathan,

    I can remember when you first registered to X Marks and I can remember your first few posts. I was impressed with the passion and pride you feel for your culture and your community. There is a lot there to be proud of.

    Let me try to respond with as much pride in the community we have built here.


    Yes, I know that we use the Saltire as the X in our name. We do have the word “Scot” in there too. You must understand however that our name was actually borrowed off a license plate frame from the guy who started X Marks. Hank thought it was a catchy play on words. And it is.

    But the name is not what makes this forum what it is today. It is despite the name that we are still here when every other kilt forum has fallen by the wayside.

    When X Marks was first envisioned 10 years ago there had been several other forums that attempted to include kilt wearing within their scope and topic of discussion. One of these was forcefully taken over by cross dressers. Another where kilts were discussed was one of the first, successful, Gay Pride sites. Many members wore Utilikilts and discussed them.

    We still have a few members to whom the kilt is the major outward expression of their sexuality.


    X Marks was different, even from its very first days.


    Hank’s unique vision was for a site where the Kilt itself was the topic of discussion, not the rest of the stuff that sometimes surrounds it. X Marks was, I believe, the first site where the word kilt did not automatically equal Homosexual.


    Some however still have a hard time making this separation. To many in the world today there are only four reasons to wear a kilt.
    1 – You are in a Pipe Band,
    2 – You are in the military uniform of a kilted regiment,
    3 – You are attending a Highland Games, or are representing the country of Scotland,
    4 - You are Gay.

    I submit that quite a few of those who join this forum are looking for acceptance for wearing a kilt outside of one of these four traditional and accepted reasons.

    I also submit that this is one of the reasons some of our members hold to the “Traditional Highland Dress” codes so firmly. As long as they are “In Traditional Scottish Dress” they can’t be mistaken for Gay. It is also why some feel that they must be so overtly masculine in their manner when in a kilt.

    X Marks was the first, and is still the only, site on the internet, where wearing the kilt does not make a judgement on why you want to wear a kilt. It is also the only site, in existence today, where no judgement is made. It is and remains the only place where the kilt itself is the focus and not why you wear it.


    This is the single and only reason that I am so firm in staying with the original concept of our founder. We keep the kilt as the focus and the topic of our discussions. We all have a reason why we put a kilt on when we get dressed in the morning. The why is not as important here as the fact that we put the kilt on.


    I do not ignore that we are all human beings. That we have other interests in our lives. Some of us like cars, computers, walking the dog and our families. Some of us also enjoy delving into our ancestry.

    So here is how I am going to respond to your first suggestion.


    Within X Marks there are two major sections containing 9 sub-sections where our members may discuss those other things and interests in their lives. The Celtic music subsection is just one of them. Within these 9 subsections the kilt does not have to be the sole focus of the discussions. I can’t remember ever seeing a kilt on stage at a Rankin or MacMasters’ concert, but those are just two examples of great music that may be of interest to those who wear a kilt.

    Here is to your second suggestion.

    If you look at the section heading above the History and Heritage subsection you will see that this is where a member can get advice from one of our experts and professionals. X Marks is blessed with members who are experts in these fields and we encourage our members to seek out this expert council. These sub-sections were not designed for general discussion but to cut through the myth and misconception that seems to surround the kilt with knowledge and advice from professional historians, Tartan experts, and Linguists.
    I would submit that you Nathan, with your background, may be one of these experts.

    We now come to your final suggestion. Politics and Religion. In the history of the world these two subjects have been the topic of more discourse than any other. It is in the nature of these two subjects to disagree. We have never, and never will find a final answer because there is no one, single answer to these two subjects. They exist for debate. And where there is debate there is discord.

    The idea behind X Marks is to unite behind this one thing we have in common, the kilt. Our members come from around the globe. We have different religious beliefs and we live and believe in different political ideologies. How can we unite and focus on our chosen topic of discussion if we put a wedge between ourselves by focusing on these our differences.


    I simply do not care what color a members’ skin is. I don’t care what your religion, political beliefs or sexual preference is. And frankly I don’t want to know. I will not judge another member on any of these things as long as you unite with me in this one single passion about wearing a kilt.

    Nathan, it all comes back to the original concept of our founder. A place on the web where the kilt is the only thing that matters. A haven if you will from all the why's. The one place on the web where we are united and not wedged apart because of why we chose a particular garment in the morning.


    I fully accept that this adherence to a very narrow topic will mean that the membership of this forum is always fluid. Some will join with a specific question and some will leave when their question is answered. Some, like myself and some of our advertisers, will stay because the kilt is why we joined in the first place.

    Some have likened X Marks to a wiki. Well, if you honestly think about it, that is what we are. A living, breathing wiki on the kilt.


    We are not, and were never intended to be, the “be-all-and-end-all” of internet communities.

    Nathan, X Marks is, and will always remain, about the kilt. In whatever way and for whatever reason you choose to wear it.
    Steve Ashton
    Forum Owner

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  14. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ashton View Post
    Nathan,

    I can remember when you first registered to X Marks and I can remember your first few posts. I was impressed with the passion and pride you feel for your culture and your community. There is a lot there to be proud of.

    Let me try to respond with as much pride in the community we have built here.


    Yes, I know that we use the Saltire as the X in our name. We do have the word “Scot” in there too. You must understand however that our name was actually borrowed off a license plate frame from the guy who started X Marks. Hank thought it was a catchy play on words. And it is.

    But the name is not what makes this forum what it is today. It is despite the name that we are still here when every other kilt forum has fallen by the wayside.

    When X Marks was first envisioned 10 years ago there had been several other forums that attempted to include kilt wearing within their scope and topic of discussion. One of these was forcefully taken over by cross dressers. Another where kilts were discussed was one of the first, successful, Gay Pride sites. Many members wore Utilikilts and discussed them.

    We still have a few members to whom the kilt is the major outward expression of their sexuality.


    X Marks was different, even from its very first days.


    Hank’s unique vision was for a site where the Kilt itself was the topic of discussion, not the rest of the stuff that sometimes surrounds it. X Marks was, I believe, the first site where the word kilt did not automatically equal Homosexual.


    Some however still have a hard time making this separation. To many in the world today there are only four reasons to wear a kilt.
    1 – You are in a Pipe Band,
    2 – You are in the military uniform of a kilted regiment,
    3 – You are attending a Highland Games, or are representing the country of Scotland,
    4 - You are Gay.

    I submit that quite a few of those who join this forum are looking for acceptance for wearing a kilt outside of one of these four traditional and accepted reasons.

    I also submit that this is one of the reasons some of our members hold to the “Traditional Highland Dress” codes so firmly. As long as they are “In Traditional Scottish Dress” they can’t be mistaken for Gay. It is also why some feel that they must be so overtly masculine in their manner when in a kilt.

    X Marks was the first, and is still the only, site on the internet, where wearing the kilt does not make a judgement on why you want to wear a kilt. It is also the only site, in existence today, where no judgement is made. It is and remains the only place where the kilt itself is the focus and not why you wear it.


    This is the single and only reason that I am so firm in staying with the original concept of our founder. We keep the kilt as the focus and the topic of our discussions. We all have a reason why we put a kilt on when we get dressed in the morning. The why is not as important here as the fact that we put the kilt on.


    I do not ignore that we are all human beings. That we have other interests in our lives. Some of us like cars, computers, walking the dog and our families. Some of us also enjoy delving into our ancestry.

    So here is how I am going to respond to your first suggestion.


    Within X Marks there are two major sections containing 9 sub-sections where our members may discuss those other things and interests in their lives. The Celtic music subsection is just one of them. Within these 9 subsections the kilt does not have to be the sole focus of the discussions. I can’t remember ever seeing a kilt on stage at a Rankin or MacMasters’ concert, but those are just two examples of great music that may be of interest to those who wear a kilt.

    Here is to your second suggestion.

    If you look at the section heading above the History and Heritage subsection you will see that this is where a member can get advice from one of our experts and professionals. X Marks is blessed with members who are experts in these fields and we encourage our members to seek out this expert council. These sub-sections were not designed for general discussion but to cut through the myth and misconception that seems to surround the kilt with knowledge and advice from professional historians, Tartan experts, and Linguists.
    I would submit that you Nathan, with your background, may be one of these experts.

    We now come to your final suggestion. Politics and Religion. In the history of the world these two subjects have been the topic of more discourse than any other. It is in the nature of these two subjects to disagree. We have never, and never will find a final answer because there is no one, single answer to these two subjects. They exist for debate. And where there is debate there is discord.

    The idea behind X Marks is to unite behind this one thing we have in common, the kilt. Our members come from around the globe. We have different religious beliefs and we live and believe in different political ideologies. How can we unite and focus on our chosen topic of discussion if we put a wedge between ourselves by focusing on these our differences.


    I simply do not care what color a members’ skin is. I don’t care what your religion, political beliefs or sexual preference is. And frankly I don’t want to know. I will not judge another member on any of these things as long as you unite with me in this one single passion about wearing a kilt.

    Nathan, it all comes back to the original concept of our founder. A place on the web where the kilt is the only thing that matters. A haven if you will from all the why's. The one place on the web where we are united and not wedged apart because of why we chose a particular garment in the morning.


    I fully accept that this adherence to a very narrow topic will mean that the membership of this forum is always fluid. Some will join with a specific question and some will leave when their question is answered. Some, like myself and some of our advertisers, will stay because the kilt is why we joined in the first place.

    Some have likened X Marks to a wiki. Well, if you honestly think about it, that is what we are. A living, breathing wiki on the kilt.


    We are not, and were never intended to be, the “be-all-and-end-all” of internet communities.

    Nathan, X Marks is, and will always remain, about the kilt. In whatever way and for whatever reason you choose to wear it.
    You fight the good fight, Steve.

    I have to agree with Nathan's post, especially the first two paragraphs.

    We (the members) know the rules of the site and strongly agree with them (otherwise we wouldn't be here).

    What I am saying is that we are too strongly moderated within these rules. Like I stated before, Nathan being warned for posting about celtic music in the celtic music sub-forum is over-moderation. Nathan (again) being warned for posting about the history of Gaels, Scots and other Celts in the History and Heritage sub-forum is over-moderation and me getting a "shot accross the bows" when I commented on two kilts someone was selling in the General Kilt Talk forum is over-moderation.

    I agree, we need strong moderation to avoid what has happened to all the other kilt forums that you spoke about. What we don't need is over moderation which is driving people away or, if they stay, making them afraid to post what they really think (as Phil talked about in his earlier post).

    Of course, you can always say "if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out" but that, in itself, would be over moderation.

    The question I'm now forced to asked myself is, "have I just posted my last post on XMarks"?

  15. #49
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    I certainly hope not!

    Quote Originally Posted by BCAC View Post
    You fight the good fight, Steve.

    I have to agree with Nathan's post, especially the first two paragraphs.

    We (the members) know the rules of the site and strongly agree with them (otherwise we wouldn't be here).

    What I am saying is that we are too strongly moderated within these rules. Like I stated before, Nathan being warned for posting about celtic music in the celtic music sub-forum is over-moderation. Nathan (again) being warned for posting about the history of Gaels, Scots and other Celts in the History and Heritage sub-forum is over-moderation and me getting a "shot accross the bows" when I commented on two kilts someone was selling in the General Kilt Talk forum is over-moderation.

    I agree, we need strong moderation to avoid what has happened to all the other kilt forums that you spoke about. What we don't need is over moderation which is driving people away or, if they stay, making them afraid to post what they really think (as Phil talked about in his earlier post).

    Of course, you can always say "if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out" but that, in itself, would be over moderation.

    The question I'm now forced to asked myself is, "have I just posted my last post on XMarks"?
    Geoff Withnell

    "My comrades, they did never yield, for courage knows no bounds."
    No longer subject to reveille US Marine.

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  17. #50
    Phil is offline Membership Revoked for repeated rule violations.
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    I am intrigued by your last post, Steve, and, in particular what you say about the underlying reason many have for wishing to wear a kilt. Are you really saying, however, that the likes of myself and Jock Scot, by wishing to preserve the traditions of kilt-wearing as we were brought up to understand it are simply trying to divert attention from an underlying penchant to "bat for the other side". While I have no issues with anyone's sexuality, the implication in the following quote is both misleading and deeply offensive to anyone of a Scottish background -
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ashton View Post
    I also submit that this is one of the reasons some of our members hold to the “Traditional Highland Dress” codes so firmly. As long as they are “In Traditional Scottish Dress” they can’t be mistaken for Gay. It is also why some feel that they must be so overtly masculine in their manner when in a kilt.
    Perhaps this might illustrate the type of misconceptions that seem to arise so frequently here and which inevitably arouse the tender sensitivities of those who jump to the reporting flag at the slightest excuse.

  18. The Following 9 Users say 'Aye' to Phil For This Useful Post:


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