I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[ASinclair]

<snip>
I really think it's best to have a subforum where members who self-identify as traditionalists hash out the finer points of what tradition is. I think our previous thread defining THCD demonstrates that we're perfectly capable of having polite and thoughtful discourse on a subject that interests us without causing a ruckus for everyone else.

I agree David. If Steve is more comfortable naming it Iconic Highland Attire, that's fine with me, as long as we can continue to discuss THCD there.

[Mael Coluim]

I agree David. If Steve is more comfortable naming it Iconic Highland Attire, that's fine with me, as long as we can continue to discuss THCD there.

Well Allen, I consider myself a "Modernist". I understand Steve's reasoning in using the Iconic terminology. Yet, I think those who embrace THCD feel strongly prefer the term Traditionalist.

This forum today has has more influence on kilt wearing than the Highlands of Scotland. If David Pope, Jock Scot, Rex, Nathan and Colin desire the word, Traditionalist let's use it.

Just don't call me a Non-Traditionalist!

[pbutts]

I'm going to take one more crack at this, though it may be moot by now...

Historical Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic. Everything from great kilts to uniforms goes here.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation. Everything from kilted casual to formal in a kilt that has stood the test of time goes here.

Modern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing kilts as everyday clothing, street wear, or fashion that privilege personal interpretation. Everything from utility kilts to tartan kilts worn in new ways goes here.

i tried to look at the forum structure with the eyes of a newbie (and it's only been two years) and found it a bit overwhelming. The first two main sections do cover the major information needs of a newbie--how to put it on, care and maintenance issues, other tips. The vendor section is self-explanatory and I found it helpful when I was finalizing my choices for my first kilt. In the grand scheme of things, the Kilt Styles section is a relatively small part of the site and represents a lot of "inside football" details of concern to a relatively small number of members.

Sticking to three categories maintains a degree of continuity with the previous forum structure but also makes it relatively easy for newbies to picture three basic contexts for choosing to strap on a kilt.

I'll leave the specific text, iconic elements or whatever, and graphic examples to others but in my humble opinion, this is a step in the right direction.

[ASinclair]

Well Allen, I consider myself a "Modernist". I understand Steve's reasoning in using the Iconic terminology. Yet, I think those who embrace THCD feel strongly prefer the term Traditionalist.

This forum today has has more influence on kilt wearing than the Highlands of Scotland. If David Pope, Jock Scot, Rex, Nathan and Colin desire the word, Traditionalist let's use it.

Just don't call me a Non-Traditionalist!

So, Ern, are you are you a modern traditionalist or a traditional modernist?

[Nathan]

Steve may be an engineer but I'm a writer so language is the tool of my trade.

The precisely correct word to use to describe adherence to long-standing traditions is not 'iconic', but 'traditional'.

Let's take a look at their definitions from Oxford online.

Traditional: adjective
existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established.
"the traditional festivities of the church year"
synonyms: long-established, customary, time-honored, established, classic, accustomed, standard, regular, normal, conventional, usual, orthodox, habitual, set, fixed, routine, ritual; More
produced, done, or used in accordance with tradition.
"a traditional fish soup"

Iconic: adjective
1Relating to or of the nature of an icon:
he became an iconic figure for directors around the world
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
2(Of a classical Greek statue) depicting a victorious athlete in a conventional style.

The word traditional exists to describe precisely what we are talking about, a long established, orthodox way of doing things that is passed down from generation to generation.
Iconic is sometimes used as a hyperbolic metaphor to describe quintessential examples of things but this is not a precise term when compared to the accurate term, "traditional".

What traditional is not:

Something from a bygone era, out-moded, vintage, retro, over.

Traditional weddings still exist, traditional music still exists, traditional customs still exist.

So what is the problem with using the accurate language to describe the actual thing?

Is it that people don't want to be told their unorthodox choices are non-traditional?
Is it because some people don't like that traditional attire gets too much bandwidth on this website?

This seems to be much more a question of forum politics than an honest attempt to find more accurate language to reflect the various categories on this website.

[rmccool]

Moot, perhaps. Or not -- up to Steve, ultimately. But of all the attempts thus far, I like this one the most because it retains the existing structure and doesn't create many, small, unnecessary divisions, but at the same time uses good, descriptive terms to help guide the themes and contents for each section.

What he said.

[creagdhubh]

Another big 'plus one' for this approach, this one is the best yet, to my mind.

I agree. Well done, Colin. I think it's best to keep the categories as clear and concise as possible. Especially for new/prospective (i.e., guests that are lurking in the shadows) members of XMTS.

[S Mitchell]

...So what is the problem with using the accurate language to describe the actual thing?

Is it that people don't want to be told their unorthodox choices are non-traditional?
Is it because some people don't like that traditional attire gets too much bandwidth on this website?

This seems to be much more a question of forum politics than an honest attempt to find more accurate language to reflect the various categories on this website.

I can see some of where people might have difficulties.

I've found the traditionalist on this forum to be courteous and polite and decent. While I don't consider myself a traditionalist, I enjoy reading and learning the details of THCD and I think it looks very sharp.

But, I can see where non-traditionalist kilt wearers might perceive a bit of elitism where none is intended.

"Traditional" is a weighty word, regardless of the nuts and bolts definition.

Traditional carries with it history and culture and implications of what is right and what is wrong. To follow tradition requires making value judgements. Without intending too, the traditional members can come across as gate keepers.

If I understand Steve correctly, he's looking for a way to allow traditionalists to discuss traditional Highland attire while divorcing the discussion from cultural identity and the implications (unintended as they may be) of rightness vs. wrongness.

Having said that, I also appreciate it's mostly an emotional argument of semantics.

The non-traditionalists are on the same continuum as the traditionalists. The line is just moved.

If a new member were to post a photo of himself with the pleats in front and ask, "How do I look?" there's not many members who would encourage him to continue wearing it so.

If he persisted with "I know, but I like to wear it this way," there's not many members who wouldn't feel or say, "Okay. Do what you want but understand people will think you're doing it wrong."

[creagdhubh]

Spot on, Padre. I would only add a quote from one of my favourite writers, Gibert Keith Chesterton, which I use as my signature line:

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about.”

It's not just the living that defines tradition, it is those who have went before us as well. We feel their presence.
T.

Precisely, Todd. What you so aptly stated is essentially the underlying reason why I began wearing Highland Dress in the first place. Well said, my friend. In regards to Chesterton's quote, I couldn't agree more. Such an eloquent, poignant, evocative, and simple statement, yet it strikes a chord deep in my heart.

[Peter Crowe]

I like having three categories. I'd suggest this tweak:

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt which emulate the way the kilt has been traditionally worn in the Highlands of Scotland. Everything from casual to formal in a kilt, if worn in a traditional way, goes here.

Steve's engineering background shapes the way he views the world. My legal training does as well. I am used to, and comfortable with, definitions which are never quite clear and which undergo frequent revision. How do we define freedom of speech? The right to privacy? What constitutes pornography?(from which discussion comes the famous quote by Justice Potter Stewart about "knowing it when he sees it...")

I really think it's best to have a subforum where members who self-identify as traditionalists hash out the finer points of what tradition is. I think our previous thread defining THCD demonstrates that we're perfectly capable of having polite and thoughtful discourse on a subject that interests us without causing a ruckus for everyone else.

I absolutely agree with David. I also believe myself to be a traditionalist in a great many things including the Kilt, but I am also comfortable with being contemporary (the two are mutually inclusive). I am a historian by training and while I am interested in the past, want to learn its lessons and what it teaches about our present, I have no desire to live in it. Furthermore, I have no desire to be a gatekeeper or a proponent of that awful phrase 'he isn't one of us.'

All that being said, I think that David's suggested tweak is very good in being both clear and broad enough without causing disharmony or hurt feelings across the range of XMTS members.