DNA can change everything

[Father Bill]

A thought for consideration when you're thinking of going into this: I'd never consider sending something as private as my personal DNA to a profit-making company for their registry. That's my chemical identity. My personal identity is how I present myself on a day to day basis to the people around me.

[Stitchwiz]

Richard,

I knew two mechanics who could have been twins - beautiful curly red-auburn hair (same cut & styling) and the most gorgeous laughing blue eyes almost the colour of the banner above the quick reply box. They had a lot of fun with their appearance. Many times they swapped coveralls to try and fool people - we had to learn to spot the differences in their bodies because they just grinned and never said a word most of the time. I knew they weren't twins as soon as they spoke - one was Scottish and the other was Italian!

On your map it shows that the red genes are prevalent in the northern part of Italy, which was where Mario was born. Stu was born in the northern part of Scotland. Would love to do a a DNA test on those two!

Thank you for sharing!

[Mike S]

Northern Italy has a large population of Germanic ethnic groups FYI. Blond or red hair and blue, grey, and green eyes are fairly commonly found in that region as a result.

[Damion]

Clarification of an earlier comment -
"I think it has long been recognised that most of the far west and north clans are Norse rather than Celtic. "
It is possible to debate the origins of patronymics but the placenames in all these clan lands are so exclusively of Viking origin (however much they have been Gaelicised) that there can be no doubt as to the cultural identity of these clans.

No doubt whatsoever, they're celtic. That is afterall where the Gaidhealtachd is, where traditional highland culture is at its strongest. As you said, culture is more important than DNA and these guys are celtic culturally, not norse, you even admit that these clans are the result of norse being Gaelicised. Which makes sense because they lay between Ireland and the Irish influenced "Scots". The northern isles though, they're surely norse culture rather than celtic.
Another example would be the large number of Cumbric place names in the south of Scotland, the people there though are not Cumbric - their ancestors maybe, but not them.

I find the British Isles fascinating in regards people movements. The vast majority of the people are from similar regions along the Coast of Europe but the ins and outs of it are quite mind boggling. Now DNA comes along and challenges some of the detail of who came from which direction. I'll have to get a test done myself one day and see if anything unexpected turns up. I read once that Shirley Manson was tested and the results were 100% Scottish. Her ancestors must have been some of those red haired Caledonians that the Romans spoke of.

[Hopper250]

Yes indeed.

At University I took a Physical Anthropology course and one thing the teacher talked about was hair colour. I don't know if it's true, but he said that there were no native people in Ireland or Scotland with red hair, such hair being the hallmark of Viking settlement (the Celts of Britain and Ireland having dark hair).

Hmmm... here's a map of red hair distribution.



The highest concentration being in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales it's tempting to say that that's the point of origin. But I wonder if it's like certain surnames being far more concentrated in the Americas than in Europe, because only a fraction of the different surnames in Britain were brought to British America and only a fraction of the different surnames in Spain were brought to Spanish America, there to multiply a thousandfold amongst the descendants.

(Interesting to note the high concentration in one area of Russia. Is it around Perm? Says here that the Udmurt people are the 'most red-headed in the world')

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people

About DNA testing it's good to be aware that mitochrondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA (passed uncombined through the female and male lines respectively) can tell quite different stories, as witnessed by the story of the Melungeons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon_DNA_Project

Melungeon mtDNA is purely European but the Y-chromosome DNA shows European, African, and Native American lineages. I would expect a similar thing with Irish and Highland Scots DNA, with the Y-chromosome DNA having a strong Scandinavian element and the mtDNA having a strong native element.

Richard, the best part of your map is that the Udmurt area being very close to old Norse trading centers.

http://www.viking-mythology.com/img/...ngs-raided.jpg

Lets not forget the Ainu as well the red-headed natives of Japan, though their genetic markers are different then the Norse for red hair.

[OC Richard]

I did the 23andMe genealogy test

Do they do mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosome DNA, or both? If you mother was Lithuanian and the test was mtDNA then yes you would be mostly Lithuanian.

The Y-chromosome DNA would tell your father's tale.

[Mike_Oettle]

As Richard points out, Y chromosomes tell you about your paternal ancestry, mtnDNA about the maternal line.
A balanced DNA analysis ought to focus on both aspects.

With regard to the MacNeills, it should be remembered that a great many of the Vikings who settled in the Hebrides (probably more than 90%) married Gaelic speakers. The children were raised speaking the mother’s language (not for nothing do we speak of mother tongue) and so were also Gaelic.
I would be interested to see the result of DNA testing on Icelanders.
The original settlers there were Celtic monks (who arrived by coracle). They probably left no descendants.
The next wave were families of Nordic-Gaelic folk (probably mostly the offspring of Viking fathers and Gaelic mothers), about a generation after the initial Viking assault on Scotland and Ireland, who followed the monks’ route by way of Orkney, Zetland and the Faroes to reach Iceland.
Only after they were well settled did further groups of settlers arrive direct from Norway.

And while Vikings did have a significant influence on early Russia (the first princes of Kiev were Swedes) and Scandinavian merchants also gathered there, it might also be that there was a distinct development of a red hair gene somewhere in the northern wastes of Siberia – and perhaps this was the origin of the Ainu.

Probing our ancestral roots is a fascinating study. Written records can tell us a great deal, but DNA also has a story to tell.
I recall reading about two fishermen in the Outer Hebrides who were tested for mitochondrial DNA and it was established that they both were descended in the maternal line from ancestors who had lived in the Far East. But the one was descended from people who had travelled to the west either across Asia or (perhaps when the Arctic ice did not block off sea travel) along the Siberian coast, while the other showed links to a line that had found its way to Brazil, and from there to Europe.
I would be fascinated to be able to trace my ancestry through DNA.

In closing, my Scottish great-grandfather belonged to a clan (or Lowland family, if you prefer) that owes its existence to an influx of Englishmen from Huntingdonshire in the time of King David I and the century that followed. But his mother was a MacGregor, which would have given him a most interesting DNA profile.
Regards,
Mike

[Catharps]

Do they do mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosome DNA, or both? If you mother was Lithuanian and the test was mtDNA then yes you would be mostly Lithuanian.

The Y-chromosome DNA would tell your father's tale.

I had not checked in with my 23andme account in a couple years and I got myself a nice surprise! They have apparently updated their ancestry section. This is not surprising as it is their only draw now that they can not offer the genetic health markers anymore. I don't remember so much detail as before.

Here is what is written on the top of the ancestry page - "Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide. This analysis includes DNA you received from all of your recent ancestors, on both sides of your family. The results reflect where your ancestors lived before the widespread migrations of the past few hundred years."

Now I am 98.4% European
- 47.3% Eastern European (this is the Lithuanian)
- 19.2% British and Irish (Who knew!)
- 13.1% French and German
- 14.5% Broadly Northern Europe (whatever that means)
- 4% Broadly European (whatever that means)

The conservative makeup is a little heavier on the 'Broadly' part, but I'll take what I can get.

My maternal haplogroup is X2. Apparently rare though widespread in the northern hemisphere. In modern times there are heavy concentrations around New England and far eastern Canada, and the Great Lakes. Starting in the Caucuses, they were some of the first maternal Europeans, and apparently had inherent wanderlust. In most locations where X2 is found the % with X2 is less then 5%, but there are places where X2 is more common- one of them is Orkney Island!

23andme was started and owned by the now ex-wife of Google exec. Yes, your data will be mined and used in research and studies. You have to agree to this. I find genetics fascinating, in another life I hope to be a genetic scientist. 23andme used to give you health related information about your genetic makeup, but due to a lawsuit, they do not anymore for new customers.

Thanks to this thread, I checked again and found out maybe I can lay some small claim to the Swan name and tartan!

-Heather Swan

[MacEanruig]

I originally posted the same article on Facebook several days ago. I think that many MacNeils, aside from being surprised, were okay with the fact that they were of Viking heritage. We should appreciate the heterogeneity of our various heritages.

[Ceatharnach]

An important thing to note is that a clan was an organisation united by both relation and association. Not every clansman was directly descended from the original progenitor/s as it was possible to formally or informally associate yourself. Many of you may find that despite belonging to a clan legendarily founded by a Viking, you are directly descended from the Picts or Gaels.

In the case of the gentleman earlier in the thread that was confused about the fact that, though his name is tied to clan Robertson, he may be closer related to the MacGregors - note that the appalling persecution experienced by the MacGregors at the hands of the Campbells and Stewarts in the 1600s led to many taking on different surnames to escape the prejudice. Donnachaidh was one such name as MacGregors were welcomed by some Robertson septs as their own. That's an example of "association" rather than genetic relation.