Playing around with some new tartan designs

[NPG]

The Manroth tartan is even closer to your desogn with the yellow stripe.

The problen with decorated blue, green and black setts is that there are a lot of variations on a theme already in existance. That said, so long as your design is unique and you don't want to register it in the NTR (there's no requirement) then something similar is not a problem unless it's likely to be confused with a tartan protected by Design Registration.

I do not want to derail the thread here so if this information would be best discussed elsewhere I understand. But this has me curious on a few things.

First what are the criteria for a design being different enough for it to qualify for registration? Second, the tartan we designed in memory of my father was recently approved for registration and we received the certificate of registration. I know it is listed on the Register of Tartans website, is this the same as being registered in the NTR? Are there other places a tartan can (or should) be registered?

[figheadair]

I do not want to derail the thread here so if this information would be best discussed elsewhere I understand. But this has me curious on a few things.

First what are the criteria for a design being different enough for it to qualify for registration? Second, the tartan we designed in memory of my father was recently approved for registration and we received the certificate of registration. I know it is listed on the Register of Tartans website, is this the same as being registered in the NTR? Are there other places a tartan can (or should) be registered?

1. The criterion is that a new design is to be 'signifcantly different' so as not to be confused with an existing design. Having opened that can of worms I'm tempted to run for cover. I sit on the Tartan Advisory Group, it is not always an easy task to get agreement but our overarching concern is that a design should be technically and visually sufficently different. We don't always agree and ultimately the descison rests with the Keeper of the Register.

2.. NTR = National Register of Tartans which is administered by the National Archieves of Scotland. The is no requirement to register a design with the NTR, nor does it have the largest record of designs, that is held by the STA but note too that their online Db is only a sub-set of their full data. We, the STA keepa record of all designs that we come across and continually work to refi e and update the information on each to provide the best historical record for future generations.

[NPG]

1. The criterion is that a new design is to be 'signifcantly different' so as not to be confused with an existing design. Having opened that can of worms I'm tempted to run for cover. I sit on the Tartan Advisory Group, it is not always an easy task to get agreement but our overarching concern is that a design should be technically and visually sufficently different. We don't always agree and ultimately the descison rests with the Keeper of the Register.

2.. NTR = National Register of Tartans which is administered by the National Archieves of Scotland. The is no requirement to register a design with the NTR, nor does it have the largest record of designs, that is held by the STA but note too that their online Db is only a sub-set of their full data. We, the STA keepa record of all designs that we come across and continually work to refi e and update the information on each to provide the best historical record for future generations.

Thank you I appreciate this information. While we appear to have been lucky with my father's tartan, my mother has expressed a desire to be honored in the same way, so I was wondering if there was a set of rules. But it sounds like we'll have to take our chances that it might not be approved.

[figheadair]

Thank you I appreciate this information. While we appear to have been lucky with my father's tartan, my mother has expressed a desire to be honored in the same way, so I was wondering if there was a set of rules. But it sounds like we'll have to take our chances that it might not be approved.

That's it in a nutshell. I had a look at the 'advice' on the Register' webpage. It's a bit wishy-washy!

How to apply to register a tartan
To apply to register a tartan, you need to have designed a unique tartan for which you must provide a threadcount, an image and a proposed tartan name. We strongly advise you to submit an application to register your tartan before having it woven to ensure it meets the criteria for registration.

Criteria for registration
The Scottish Register of Tartans Act has established clear criteria for the inclusion of a tartan in the Register:

a new tartan must meet the definition of tartan contained in the Scottish Register of Tartans Act (2008)
it must be a new design, unique to the Register, and
there must be a clear link between the person registering the tartan and the proposed tartan name.

Actualy, it has to be more that a new design, unique to the Register , it has to be unique, period. We've had a couple of instances when the registration staff were content because an old design wasn't on The Register and so their view was that a new design would met the criterion in the Act. Clearly that is flawed in that individuals might therefore assume that their design was unquie whereas it wasn't in such a case.

[OC Richard]

Here in the USA we have had court cases on this issue, termed "fair use", in the art world.

In the recent case Cariou v. Prince a New York court found that as long as an artist has done a "transformative act" upon a copyrighted image it constitutes fair use.

I would think that in the UK as well as here it's a blurry line determining just what makes a tartan "unique".

A recent example is the Outlander people copyrighting a series of tartans nearly identical to an old existing tartan- of course the original would be Public Domain here anyhow.

"There must be a clear link between the person registering the tartan and the proposed tartan name."

Interesting. So today, I suppose, two English brothers named Allen couldn't register a boatload of tartans bearing Clan names?

[figheadair]

Interesting. So today, I suppose, two English brothers named Allen couldn't register a boatload of tartans bearing Clan names?

Absolutely not under today's terms.

[OC Richard]

I would think that would also prevent a Scottish weaving firm from unilaterally designing/producing/registering? tartans for every county in Ireland, like House Of Edgar did in the 1980s.

Though it's here in the USA, didn't an American firm design tartans for each US state? For every branch of the US military, and police, and fire?

These are purely commercial ventures, aren't they? The designers and producers of these tartans couldn't possibly have a close connexion with EVERY entity one of their tartans are named for.

[figheadair]

I would think that would also prevent a Scottish weaving firm from unilaterally designing/producing/registering? tartans for every county in Ireland, like House Of Edgar did in the 1980s.

Though it's here in the USA, didn't an American firm design tartans for each US state? For every branch of the US military, and police, and fire?

These are purely commercial ventures, aren't they? The designers and producers of these tartans couldn't possibly have a close connexion with EVERY entity one of their tartans are named for.

Richard, you're absolutely right they wouldn't be accepted without some authority. That's why the likes of Dalgliesh (Scotweb) and HoE don't submit most of their designs to the Register.

[ThistleDown]

Richard, you're absolutely right they wouldn't be accepted without some authority. That's why the likes of Dalgliesh (Scotweb) and HoE don't submit most of their designs to the Register.

That in itself is a valuable piece of information, Peter. In the case of a 'found' piece of fabric such as you have shown us many times over many years,, what steps are required for authenticity to be recognised.

[OC Richard]

Richard, you're absolutely right they wouldn't be accepted without some authority.

Bummer.

I suppose I'll have to abandon my scheme.

I was going to legally change my name to Charles Edward Sobieski Stolberg Guedern Allan Stuart, Count d'Albanie and design (on the computer, never upon the loom!) a couple hundred tartans for a load of Scottish surnames which are currently tartanless.

I've come up with two already:

Brown: he hath twa spranges of brown upon ane brown field

Black: he hath twa spranges of black upon ane black field