a tale of two bagpipes

[OC Richard]

On a different thread in a different forum The Wizard Of BC demonstrated how an experienced "eye" can tell much about a kilt's constructions, materials, and origin from a single pic.

To show a similar thing with pipers and pipes, I posted the following two photos. Each shows a set of pipes currently being sold on Ebay by people who don't know what they're selling.

For experienced pipers this is easy-peasy, but here goes anyhow. From the following pics deduce, for each pipe,

1) where it was made
2) who made it
3) when it was made
4) the materials used
5) the quality of tone and performance
6) approximate value

[The Wizard of BC]

I am not a piper but just 'cause.

1) where it was made - Over there
2) who made it - Jim
3) when it was made - Tuesday
4) the materials used Wood, cloth, shiney stuff
5) the quality of tone and performance - They are bagpipes
6) approximate value - More than I would ever pay

[The Q]

I've no idea about who where why?
But that second set looks entirely man made,
rubber bag,
jubilee clips to hold the drones on.
Nylon instead of ivory,
And some other man-made plastic for the drones themselves.

[EagleJCS]

After 15 years of playing, I consider myself an experienced piper, but I don't have a lot of experience identifying pipes, neither by appearance nor sound. So, identifying these pipes from just two (albeit huge) pictures is not so easy-peasy.

I have only one set of pipes, which I bought after taking lessons for about 7 months. I'm fortunate to have a maker local to me (he's now retired), so I didn't shop around a whole lot.

[OC Richard]

I'm fortunate, I suppose, because from the get-go, when I began playing in my first band in the late 1970s, I was around people playing lovely vintage pipes.

I had been playing only around three years yet I had been exposed to what vintage Hendersons, Lawries, MacDougalls, Glens, etc looked like and sounded like. 40 years on, and I've owned pipes from most of the well-known vintage makers.

SPOILER ALERT don't read the following if you want to make your own educated guesses. That's what vintage pipe ID is all about, educated guessing. There are pipes which numerous experts have examined and it's still unclear who made them.

These two pipes aren't like that. They're in the category of the obvious, for pipers who have held, examined, heard, and played vintage pipes.

Top pipe:
1. Sialkot Pakistan

2. one of the numerous makers there, there are hundreds, the largest being Geoffrey.

3. hard to say exactly, as they've made the same type for decades, but probably 1970s to 1980s.

4. the wood is Sheesham wood. The Pakistani makers call it Rosewood, it is not. The mounts are aluminium alloy.

5. the sound would be sh!te, if you can get reeds to go in them at all.

6. you could get a set like this new from the maker, back in the 1980s, for $40.

Bottom pipe:

1. Edinburgh

2. James Robertson. The huge fat ivory mounts are unique to him; no other sets look remotely like Robertsons.

3. he made pipes 1908-1948 though the business continued for some years after. I would guess this set was made in the 1930s or so; to nail down the exact year one would look at the hallmarks on the mounts.

4. As I recall Robertson was in the forefront of using African Blackwood, so sight unseen I would guess the materials are ABW, ivory, and sterling silver. These mounts are chased with the thistle pattern and will likely be hallmarked "D&N" which is Dalman and Narborough, Birmingham. Due to these being a silver-mounted set I would assume that the projecting mounts are genuine ivory. However Robertson made many pipes, generally their less expensive sets, mounted with casein, an odd early imitation ivory made from milk protein. By now these casein mounts have badly degraded, literally disintegrating before your eyes, and it's common practice for modern pipers to send these old Robertson sets to have the casein removed and replaced with modern imitation ivory or other substance.

5. Robertsons are renowned for their wonderful huge bold tone and their consistency. I've heard pipers say a couple things about Robertsons:
"Lotsa wood. Lotsa ivory. Lotsa sound."
"You never hear a bad Robertson." (There are good Hendersons and bad Hendersons. Good Lawries and bad Lawries. But Robertsons always sound great.)

6. The market for used pipes fluctuates along with the general economy, but I've seen sets like this go for $4000 to $6000. Robertsons are renowned for their tone and you'll see them in the hands of good pipers, thus the demand for Robertsons, especially silver-mounted ones like above, is high.

Helps when world-famous pipers are playing a particular make of pipe, to increase its value.

Here is Pipe Major Terry Tully of St Lawrence O'Toole Pipe Band playing his silver & ivory mounted set of Robertsons. Too bad the video is poor quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UhOWBzTSlY

[slothead]

Thank you Richard for your explanations. Neither am I a piper, but I am an amateur musician. We guitarists would call that 'imitation ivory' - "ivoroid" and know that only because it is all over our guitars in various locations, and is used mostly because of the legal barriers of importing real ivory. And on that subject, if the Robertson pipes employed real ivory, would they not be illegal to import-export these days? We also know rosewood from southern Asia referred to as "East Indian Rosewood" (and has similarly been employed starting about 1970 due to the same legalities as that of Brazilian Rosewood), but I am an expert in neither ivory or wood (and know absolutely nothing of "Sheesham"), so I make these comments only as questions or observations from my personal limited knowledge base.

Regardless, I enjoyed your explanations.

[Bluescelt]

Our clan piper plays a set of Robertsons and they do sound great.