Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[Reiver]

(I don't think it was Jock's son in law but I believe he may be away from home just now.)
Here is what he actually said
"Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here."
So the insecurity mentioned was about genealogy - not kilt-wearing.
We are all scuppered by rule #5 here which means that many potentially helpful comments cannot be made. C'est la vie

Alan

Yes, but there is an implied relationship regardless as this site is about kilt wearing and not genealogy and that is basically the rendered implication.
The example I pointed out is also germane as it relates to the outwith issue and the application (to some) of Scots garb in/to the negative.

After reading numerous comments/posts/threads about the Scots attitude about visitors (of Scots decent) wearing a kilt etc. it is simply my own conclusion....a basic schizophrenia if you will....exporting, selling and promoting an item(s) of wear and Scottishness yet somewhat insulted when it actually materializes.

You're not a true Scot but I'd love to sell you all of the garb (you know it's very dear to make so pull out the folding money) but please don't wear it here as you're not a true Scot.

That seems a tad insecure to me at least.

[ThistleDown]

Reiver you must understand that the number of 'Scots' contributing to this forum is ultra small; for the number who say anything critical about visitors to Scotland it is easy to walk into any village and find many more who love the funds visitors bring into the country.

The point of this thread is the question: how one can claim a nationality without being a national? American without being American, for example. Since Scots generally speaking don't hanker after being anything other than Scottish, some here are seeking to understand the reason behind Americans (Canadians, Australians, whatever) wishing to claim another nationality than their own.

[davidlpope]

Reiver you must understand that the number of 'Scots' contributing to this forum is ultra small; for the number who say anything critical about visitors to Scotland it is easy to walk into any village and find many more who love the funds visitors bring into the country.

The point of this thread is the question: how one can claim a nationality without being a national? American without being American, for example. Since Scots generally speaking don't hanker after being anything other than Scottish, some here are seeking to understand the reason behind Americans (Canadians, Australians, whatever) wishing to claim another nationality than their own.

Great question.

First, as Richard has previously pointed out, when Americans say they are "Scottish". They don't mean that they grew up in Scotland or their citizenship is the United Kingdom, resident in Scotland. It's a shorthand way of saying I am American with at least some Scottish ancestry. They say this because there is no such thing as being of American* ancestry. We are too young of a country and too varied in our ethnic make up based on region for that term to have any value.

As to why an American would make this distinction, I think it's because the term "American" is too broad to be of any real descriptive value. That's because the United States is too big and too varied and too heterogenous for nationality to communicate any useful information about person's ethnic or cultural identity. On the other hand, If someone tells me they are a Southerner, there's an immediate connection, regardless of other differences between me and that person. We share a culture. If someone tells me they're from North Carolina there's a sense of identity that person and I will share, even if there are particular differences between us. if someone self- identifies as a Scottish American or an American of Scottish descent, then they're providing useful description. They are telling me that, one, they know what their background is based on at least some preliminary research, and, two, that they value their history and heritage.

I don't think that Scots or Englishmen or Germans or Poles would be happy to stop at saying that they are Europeans. I think that they would want to say that they are Scots or Englishmen or Germans or Poles. When you consider the issue of scale, that's what we're dealing with.

*except for Native Americans/American Indians/First Nations People

[Liam]

1329605[/URL]]Reiver you must understand that the number of 'Scots' contributing to this forum is ultra small; for the number who say anything critical about visitors to Scotland it is easy to walk into any village and find many more who love the funds visitors bring into the country.

The point of this thread is the question: how one can claim a nationality without being a national? American without being American, for example. Since Scots generally speaking don't hanker after being anything other than Scottish, some here are seeking to understand the reason behind Americans (Canadians, Australians, whatever) wishing to claim another nationality than their own.

The salient point is that they are not claiming Scottish citizenship but rightfully acknowledging Scottish ancestry.

[Reiver]

The salient point is that they are not claiming Scottish citizenship but rightfully acknowledging Scottish ancestry.

Of course that's the case and a quite obvious one....which leads back to my earlier point I think. More going on, it seems, than simply the obvious.

Applicable to what sized group, no idea.

[Jock Scot]

(I don't think it was Jock's son in law but I believe he may be away from home just now.)
Here is what he actually said
"Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here."
So the insecurity mentioned was about genealogy - not kilt-wearing.
We are all scuppered by rule #5 here which means that many potentially helpful comments cannot be made. C'est la vie

Alan

Riever.

Neither Sally or Harry are related to me. Both of them and their respective families are long term friends though. I should add, as you mention it, that Harry is an exceedingly confident young man who has grown up with the kilt as did his(Sally's too) ancestors. He does indeed have issues with the kilt from a certain perspective, but insecurity is definitely not one of them!

Whilst this is a kilt website , this discussion in this particular thread is taking place in the "Genealogical Section". We are not discussing who can and cannot wear the kilt or in fact, the kilt at all. We are discussing how someone from outwith Scotland, with distant connections to Scotland, can claim to be Scots.

Many of us over the years have discussed who and who cannot wear the kilt and you know full well, that is a discussion that goes nowhere fast and is best left well alone. We are in this thread discussing a completely different aspect-------genealogy-------in the hope of greater international understanding which should be informative to many members here.

[Reiver]

I agree he has 'kilt issues' and they appear to be slightly insecure ones if he is worried about looking like a tourist.

As to insecurity for those interested in genealogy or their ancestors.....does insecurity relate only to this form of history or is there an insecure strain in all historical endeavors?

[Jock Scot]

I agree he has 'kilt issues' and they appear to be slightly insecure ones if he is worried about looking like a tourist.

As to insecurity for those interested in genealogy or their ancestors.....does insecurity relate only to this form of history or is there an insecure strain in all historical endeavors?

At the risk of repeating myself, insecurity is not the issue, mild irritation in others perceptions most certainly is. They are not one and the same. I really do not understand why you are wanting to pursue your train of thought when you have been informed, plainly, that you are barking up the wrong tree.

[SeumasA]

Riever.
We are discussing how someone from outwith Scotland, with distant connections to Scotland, can claim to be Scots.

My two cents worth...
I was at a Reformation Sunday service this morning. During the sermon the pastor made a comment about being an Italian-Catholic Presbyterian pastor serving in Salt Lake City, the home of the Mormons. I think the pretty much sums up the American experience. These are young countries. ALL of us are from somewhere else. It's a way to share a connection with others, whose ancestors also originated somewhere else.

[neloon]

ALL of us are from somewhere else.

The puzzle is that, changing ALL to MOST, that's just about the situation in Scotland. But we don't care about it.

Alan