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  1. #1
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    Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

    Since the other thread was locked as it went off topic to the original post, can I ask a Mod to move the off-topic posts to this new thread where the conversation can continue?

    Thanks.

  2. The Following User Says 'Aye' to davidlpope For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
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    Excellent idea David. I certainly have no objection to my posts from the other thread, being moved to here.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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    This is tricky.

    If the original poster of any given post can give me the url and the post number, I can do it. Otherwise, I'd have neither permission nor the technical ability, and even then it's a slow and cumbersome process.
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair.

  5. #4
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    My best attempt to import the previous conversation...

    Ok guys, this is really messy, but I think it summarizes the gist of the conversation for those not in the original thread.

    I've tried to retain the pertinent posts. Apologizes if I left something out.

    David





    neloon
    1.
    2. Originally Posted by OC Richard

    Unlike most people in Britain, 99% of us came to our current hemisphere of abode from somewhere else within a few generations.
    That statement is simultaneously precise ("99%") and vague ("few"). I'm not sure that the US/UK difference in historical immigration is as great as you imagine and certainly the current foreign-born population proportions are almost identical at 13%.

    Alan
    'Aye'
    ________________________________________
    4. Yesterday, 08:26 AM #30

    OC Richard
    Originally Posted by neloon

    How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American
    It's just common Colonial shorthand.

    Somebody will self-identify here saying "I'm Irish" or "I'm German" or what have you, and we know it's not a claim of being a citizen of a foreign country. It's just faster than saying "I'm a US citizen of Irish ancestry".

    Unlike most people in Britain, 99% of us came to our current hemisphere of abode from somewhere else within a few generations.

    At least around here, when someone was born elsewhere they'll say "I'm from Ireland" or "I'm from Germany".

    In contrast to someone saying "my family came from Ireland" which indicates that they're born here. (It's said the same whether the family came here in 1750, or 1850, or 1950.)
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first white settlers on the Guyandotte

    ________________________________________
    5. 25th October 16, 11:49 PM #28

    Jock Scot
    Originally Posted by davidlpope
    Jock,

    Thanks for your post. A few follow-up questions:

    What, exactly, do you intend to communicate when you say to someone, "I am Jock Scot from Scotland"? Does it mean the same thing if the speaker is a native of Spain, recently immigrated, naturalized, and living in Dundee?

    Does "I am Jock Scot from Scotland" communicate a different message than "I am Jock Scot, a Scot"?
    I think you are in danger of overthinking all this, but the " I am Jock Scot from Scotland" would be just a way of introducing myself to a stranger and it means exactly what it says. " I am Jock Scot" and "I am from Scotland". If I lived in London for example I might introduce myself as "Jock Scot, from London".

    If Pedro Gonzales introduced himself as coming from Madrid or Dundee matters not really, its just a way of "breaking the ice".
    Last edited by Jock Scot; Yesterday at 12:43 AM.
    7. 25th October 16, 05:27 PM #27

    neloon
    David,
    Focussing on your paragraph 2 (post 21), we (in the UK) simply find all of this weird and, in some degree, unsettling for reasons that we are not allowed to discuss here. But then, most British people find many aspects of US life disturbing - a nightmare rather than a dream - and Scots do not relish "Scottish-ness" being incorporated into this narrative. Obviously, you would not see it that way especially living where you live. Furthermore, one is aware from friendships (we meet many from over the pond in this oil-boom neck of the woods and my daughter's university has many US students) that most US citizens see both Scotland and the US in a new way when they are living here. Hopefully, XMarks may also assist mutual understanding.

    Alan
    8. 25th October 16, 04:15 PM #26

    Jack Daw
    I'm fascinated by the Scots fascination with the Canadian/American fascination with "our past". The American past is relatively short and our culture is rather new. Our culture is a mish-mash/green salad/melting pot of different cultures from many countries. From my POV, I've wanted to know since I was a kid the reason(s) WHY my ancestors came here and didn't stay in the Old World. In some lines, I have found out, and am still searching others. But, I'm not clinging to the past, I just want to know who came before me. Genealogy is a legitimate hobby, mind! I like history/anthropology, and genealogy helps to personalize history. I don't think this hobby is all that odd. Some people collect bottle openers; I collect dead ancestors.
    Steve "Jack Daw" McIntyre
    "The honour the Sleat carpenter obtained...is still preserved for his descendants." Duncan Ban MacIntyre
    9. 25th October 16, 04:11 PM #25

    MacKenzie
    Originally Posted by davidlpope
    Jock,

    Upon reflection, I think there are several different things going on.

    1. My experience is that the large majority of Americans who do go in for kilt-wearing, "Scottish-ness", etc. are a subset of Americans who are interested in their own genealogy and family history. So, you're likely getting a very skewed sample on XMarks. Rest assured that there are plenty of Americans who don't know, care, or give a second thought to their ancestry beyond maybe who their grandparents were. Internet genealogy has increased the number of genealogical hobbyists, but it's still a small number, usually only one person out of a large, extended family.

    2. That said, there is a group of people whose hobby is genealogy/lineage societies/military re-enacting, etc. Beyond that group is another group of folks who do Ren Faire/Steampunk. I find that folks in these two hobby groups also tend to be into "Scottish-ness". In other words, it's not uncommon to find someone here in NC who is a member of the St. Andrew's Society, Sons of the American Revolution, Sons of Confederate Veterans, a Rev War reenactor, and officer in their clan society. In fact that's the norm, rather than a deviation.

    3. I think that most folks who are intrigued/captivated by history in general, and their family's past specifically, aren't desperate. They're simply "history nerds"*. This is what they're into, as others might be into cycling or fishing or model train collecting.
    And there is no shortage of people/groups/organizations in Scotland whose interest or mission is to preserve and promote the history of Scotland and it's people* - all the way back to the Bronze Age. Here in the states we just can't go back to the heavy metal ages without getting our feet wet.

    *Interesting that most incorporate some form of the kilt or tartan into their "reinactment" attire.
    Last edited by MacKenzie; 25th October 16 at 04:12 PM.
    Tulach Ard
    11. 25th October 16, 03:21 PM #23

    Jock Scot
    Originally Posted by kilted scholar
    This is with reference to Jock's comments about what he regards as (sorry) insecurity on the part of those Americans who are interested in their ancestry.

    I am not an American so I have no personal interest in the case, although I did live there for many years. However, I am aware of many people in the UK who are also interested in their ancestry and are in the process of investigating it. That there are not so many in the UK doing this is in part attributable to the fact that the population of the USA is nearly six times greater.

    However, there is a wider point. Many cultures make their ancestry an integral part of their world. This is so in Asia. It is also true closer to the West. This is not an entry on religion but, knowing Jock is not a churchgoer or overly familiar with religious matters, it should be noted that the Bible is stacked full of genealogical records, ancestors traced back for centuries. This was necessary for the priesthood, in order to establish its roots from Aaron, but it had much wider reference as well.

    Far from being an aberration, which should provoke bemusement and pity, an awareness of where it is from which we have come is recognized widely throughout the world, and has been over the centuries, as a necessary ingredient for life in the present. The bemusement, may I suggest, should be directed instead towards those who are ignorant of roots and who cannot understand why this knowledge should be sought, for this more than anything is the aberration.

    "Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum. Quid enim est aetas hominis, nisi ea memoria rerum veterum cum superiorum aetate contexitur?" Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the age of man, except it be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior time? Cicero, Ad Brutum, 34:120
    On the contrary, I absolutely applaud the interest of knowing about ones roots. It is the two hour lecture to strangers who may not be altogether interested in other people's roots that I question.The Scots just do not take a general interest in knowing about other people's ancestry and generally prefer to keep their own ancestry within their own close family. That is the Scot's way.

    Whilst, that process is ongoing I do question , as was Alan , how anyone who is, for example, a Scot living in Applecross as did his parents and Grandparents with a Great, Great, Grand parent from say, Norway, can claim to be Norwegian. That does stretch credence more than somewhat in my book.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 25th October 16 at 11:58 PM.
    12. 25th October 16, 01:58 PM #22
    kilted scholar
    This is with reference to Jock's comments about what he regards as (sorry) insecurity on the part of those Americans who are interested in their ancestry.

    I am not an American so I have no personal interest in the case, although I did live there for many years. However, I am aware of many people in the UK who are also interested in their ancestry and are in the process of investigating it. That there are not so many in the UK doing this is in part attributable to the fact that the population of the USA is nearly six times greater.

    However, there is a wider point. Many cultures make their ancestry an integral part of their world. This is so in Asia. It is also true closer to the West. This is not an entry on religion but, knowing Jock is not a churchgoer or overly familiar with religious matters, it should be noted that the Bible is stacked full of genealogical records, ancestors traced back for centuries. This was necessary for the priesthood, in order to establish its roots from Aaron, but it had much wider reference as well.

    Far from being an aberration, which should provoke bemusement and pity, an awareness of where it is from which we have come is recognized widely throughout the world, and has been over the centuries, as a necessary ingredient for life in the present. The bemusement, may I suggest, should be directed instead towards those who are ignorant of roots and who cannot understand why this knowledge should be sought, for this more than anything is the aberration.

    "Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum. Quid enim est aetas hominis, nisi ea memoria rerum veterum cum superiorum aetate contexitur?" Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the age of man, except it be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior time? Cicero, Ad Brutum, 34:120
    Last edited by kilted scholar; 25th October 16 at 02:19 PM.
    'Aye'
    ________________________________________
    14. 25th October 16, 10:41 AM #21

    davidlpope

    Originally Posted by Jock Scot
    Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here.
    Jock,

    Upon reflection, I think there are several different things going on.

    1. My experience is that the large majority of Americans who do go in for kilt-wearing, "Scottish-ness", etc. are a subset of Americans who are interested in their own genealogy and family history. So, you're likely getting a very skewed sample on XMarks. Rest assured that there are plenty of Americans who don't know, care, or give a second thought to their ancestry beyond maybe who their grandparents were. Internet genealogy has increased the number of genealogical hobbyists, but it's still a small number, usually only one person out of a large, extended family.

    2. That said, there is a group of people whose hobby is genealogy/lineage societies/military re-enacting, etc. Beyond that group is another group of folks who do Ren Faire/Steampunk. I find that folks in these two hobby groups also tend to be into "Scottish-ness". In other words, it's not uncommon to find someone here in NC who is a member of the St. Andrew's Society, Sons of the American Revolution, Sons of Confederate Veterans, a Rev War reenactor, and officer in their clan society. In fact that's the norm, rather than a deviation.

    3. I think that most folks who are intrigued/captivated by history in general, and their family's past specifically, aren't desperate. They're simply "history nerds"*. This is what they're into, as others might be into cycling or fishing or model train collecting.


    *I accept and embrace the adjective "history nerd".

    ________________________________________
    16. 25th October 16, 10:18 AM #19

    davidlpope
    Originally Posted by Jock Scot
    "Saying I am an American", or wherever is all that needs to be said in Scots eyes and mind.

    Russian, New Zealand, Peru, Mars, wherever is enough to a Scot. Don't forget that the Scots have interesting connections of the past too. I can count Australian, Russian, German, French(from three different directions),English and possibly, probably even, other international connections too. Am I a one off in Scotland with these connections? Hardly. To a Scot we are what we are and frankly no one here is interested in my roots, or in the roots most other Scots either. To us that is just a personal thing that we may or may not even know about, or care, but most certainly it does not occur to us that anyone else might be interested in the slightest , apart on rare occasion with our immediate family. If I went about claiming that I was French/Australian/Russian/wherever as I could, the locals would think I was completely mad.

    Each to their own, is of course everyone's prerogative, but speaking personally and as a Scot and as a Brit., I find all this public chat about our ancestors is rather tiresome, unnecessary and frankly, no one else's business. A "how do you do, I am Jock Scot from Scotland and you are Elmer Fudd from America, or wherever" is all I and most from the UK need to know.
    Jock,

    Thanks for your post. A few follow-up questions:

    What, exactly, do you intend to communicate when you say to someone, "I am Jock Scot from Scotland"? Does it mean the same thing if the speaker is a native of Spain, recently immigrated, naturalized, and living in Dundee?

    Does "I am Jock Scot from Scotland" communicate a different message than "I am Jock Scot, a Scot"?
    Last edited by davidlpope; 25th October 16 at 10:19 AM.

    ________________________________________
    18. 25th October 16, 12:52 AM #18

    Jock Scot

    Originally Posted by davidlpope
    Alan,

    You've hit on a very big difference between the United States and the Scotland.

    The United States is a very big nation, covering the same geography as that between Syria and Portugal. It is composed of a wide range of ethnicities, and these ethnicities are usually grouped in a particular region of the nation, resulting in a very heterogeneous population. It's also a very young nation. Even the earliest immigrants to these shores came just over 300 years ago.

    When Americans say, "I am Scottish" or "I am German", what they actually mean is "At least a few of my ancestors, perhaps very distant, are from Scotland/Germany." Since Americans don't really have a shared national culture/history/experience they often look towards a more distant origin where there is a particular and pronounced culture. Saying "I am an American" just doesn't communicate much about a person's background or culture.

    I am often surprised that Sean Connery and Billy Connelly are put forward as quintessential Scots. They're of Irish paternal descent. It seems odd to me that they would so quickly assimilate, particularly when the "auld sod" is so close geographically. As you often hear in the South, "If a cat had kittens in the oven it wouldn't make them biscuits..."
    "Saying I am an American", or wherever is all that needs to be said in Scots eyes and mind.

    Russian, New Zealand, Peru, Mars, wherever is enough to a Scot. Don't forget that the Scots have interesting connections of the past too. I can count Australian, Russian, German, French(from three different directions),English and possibly, probably even, other international connections too. Am I a one off in Scotland with these connections? Hardly. To a Scot we are what we are and frankly no one here is interested in my roots, or in the roots most other Scots either. To us that is just a personal thing that we may or may not even know about, or care, but most certainly it does not occur to us that anyone else might be interested in the slightest , apart on rare occasion with our immediate family. If I went about claiming that I was French/Australian/Russian/wherever as I could, the locals would think I was completely mad.

    Each to their own, is of course everyone's prerogative, but speaking personally and as a Scot and as a Brit., I find all this public chat about our ancestors is rather tiresome, unnecessary and frankly, no one else's business. A "how do you do, I am Jock Scot from Scotland and you are Elmer Fudd from America, or wherever" is all I and most from the UK need to know.

    Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 25th October 16 at 01:08 AM.
    19. 24th October 16, 09:42 PM #17

    Liam

    Originally Posted by neloon
    (I think this may sound very rude but I'm trying to be helpful.)

    How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American and, as I understand it, you are not allowed joint citizenship with another nation. Despite its title, 99.99% of membership of this site are likewise not Scots. Of course, some fraction of their ancestry might be of Scottish origin and, before that, Viking, French, English, Italian, Polish ...
    Concern with one's forebears seems to be a particularly US thing which we don't really understand in the UK - seems to be something to do with "roots". For example, an English person with one or both Scottish parents might subconsciously be aware of such descent but few would take note of a Scots grandparent or anything further back. Think of recent UK Prime Ministers with names like MacMillan, Home, Blair, Cameron - they would not be regarded by themselves or anyone else as anything but English. In the same way, although many Scots are of recent Irish extraction, they think of themselves only as Scots. And we have 100% Scots with surnames such as Patel, D'Agostino, Ng - our next door neighbour is a very patriotic member of the clan Mojsiewicz.
    Most Scots have no concern about clans/families - they smack too much of feudalism for such a relatively left-wing country (no politics,please). So they would wear their clan tartan if they have a clan (generally by reason of surname) but that's about as far as it goes. They would probably know very little of their clan's history - why would they, what use would it be?
    I'm afraid, if you want to be Scots, you have to be born in Scotland or live in Scotland. That does not, of course, preclude you from enjoying Scottish history, our national dress, our languages, music and culture generally and we are grateful for your interest and enthusiasm. Keep it up!

    Alan
    Now Alan, he was, I'm sure referring to his ancestry not his citizenship. I have related this before but will do so again - my brother-in-law claims to be Canadian by citizenship, English by birth and Scottish by absorption.
    ��
    21. 24th October 16, 02:31 PM #16

    davidlpope

    Originally Posted by neloon
    Anyway here is the "Big Yin" finding out about a strand of his ancestry . Go right to the end. Is he Irish? British? Scots? ... Indian?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIMmTkKRpGw
    From what I've found online I would say that Connolly's descent is roughly 3/4 Irish and 1/4 Highland Scot.

    I guess the complexity is that being a citizen/subject in some countries carries with it an ethnic/cultural identity, because the population of that country have been largely established for many centuries. In other countries, particularly newer countries which were former colonies, being a citizen/subject does not imply a particular ethnic/cultural background.

    It's hard for me, being of the latter, to not make such a distinction in the case of Connolly. His nationality is Scottish. His ancestry is largely Irish.

    As an American I tend to think of someone's ancestry being the origin of their ancestors, before all the "moving around" took place. In other words, how far back do you have to go before your ancestors are from the same place generation after generation?
    Last edited by davidlpope; 24th October 16 at 02:38 PM.
    ________________________________________
    22. 24th October 16, 12:35 PM #15

    neloon
    Originally Posted by davidlpope

    I am often surprised that Sean Connery and Billy Connelly are put forward as quintessential Scots. They're of Irish paternal descent. It seems odd to me that they would so quickly assimilate, particularly when the "auld sod" is so close geographically.
    But, as I said above, that's the way it is. For both, you would have to go two generations back to find a slender connection with Ireland and no desire to dwell on the despair that must have given rise to the move. Scotland has such a rich cultural environment that there is no pressure to look anywhere else unless financial reward beckons. And the same seems to be true for other ethnicities although those of Italian descent often maintain links with relatives for more than a generation.

    Anyway here is the "Big Yin" finding out about a strand of his ancestry . Even some kilts! Go right to the end. Is he Irish? British? Scots? ... Indian?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIMmTkKRpGw

    Slightly ironical for me, the stately home you see in the documentary is Candacraig House which was one of the seats of my clan, owned by Billy for a number of years
    http://www.deesidepiper.co.uk/news/l...r-3m-1-3071373

    Alan
    Last edited by neloon; 24th October 16 at 03:00 PM.
    23. 24th October 16, 10:52 AM #14

    WillowEstate

    Alan, Post #8,



    A very thoughtful and thought provoking contribution. You make an excellent distinction between birthright (where we were born), which may or may not include nationality and ancestry (where our forebears came from). You are right, also that residents and or nationals of relatively young countries appear to be much more concerned with ancestry than those of the “old world”. When I worked for an American company but based in the UK, we had a lot of transatlantic visitors. A colleague used to delight in pointing at his house and declaring “This is older than America!” (it was, by a good 50 years).



    I was born in England, of parents also born in England, so I fit perfectly into your definition of “English”, though if you were to ask my nationality, I would claim “British”, because The Union is important to me, not, note, “UK” or “European”. Beyond my grandparents, I have no idea of the history or origin of their predecessors, nor is it of any great importance to me – as you say, what use would it be? I am content with who I am in the here and now.



    I do have a tenuous link to the Scottish military, through the wonderful couple who gave back to my father, the will to live, after he was injured during the second world war and spent many months in a military hospital. While I do wear the kilt this gentleman bequeathed to me and carry his given name, in no way do I regard myself as Scots.


    So my country is England, my nationality British and beyond that, I am a citizen of the world and I am comfortable with that, despite residing on the other side of the planet.


    I came to love Scotland, particularly the far north west coast, on many holidays there, much as I do Yosemite National Park in California and the wild places here in Australia. These allow me to appreciate the diversity of the culture and customs of our world; XMTS itself is a great example of our differences but with a shared enjoyment of our common interest in all things Scottish. But at heart, I am still me!


    Apologies to the OP for drifting off topic.
    Regards, Sav.

    "The Sun Never Sets on X-Marks!"
    24. 24th October 16, 10:26 AM #13

    davidlpope
    Originally Posted by neloon
    (I think this may sound very rude but I'm trying to be helpful.)

    How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American and, as I understand it, you are not allowed joint citizenship with another nation. Despite its title, 99.99% of membership of this site are likewise not Scots. Of course, some fraction of their ancestry might be of Scottish origin and, before that, Viking, French, English, Italian, Polish ...
    Concern with one's forebears seems to be a particularly US thing which we don't really understand in the UK - seems to be something to do with "roots". For example, an English person with one or both Scottish parents might subconsciously be aware of such descent but few would take note of a Scots grandparent or anything further back. Think of recent UK Prime Ministers with names like MacMillan, Home, Blair, Cameron - they would not be regarded by themselves or anyone else as anything but English. In the same way, although many Scots are of recent Irish extraction, they think of themselves only as Scots. And we have 100% Scots with surnames such as Patel, D'Agostino, Ng - our next door neighbour is a very patriotic member of the clan Mojsiewicz.
    Most Scots have no concern about clans/families - they smack too much of feudalism for such a relatively left-wing country (no politics,please). So they would wear their clan tartan if they have a clan (generally by reason of surname) but that's about as far as it goes. They would probably know very little of their clan's history - why would they, what use would it be?
    I'm afraid, if you want to be Scots, you have to be born in Scotland or live in Scotland. That does not, of course, preclude you from enjoying Scottish history, our national dress, our languages, music and culture generally and we are grateful for your interest and enthusiasm. Keep it up!

    Alan
    Alan,

    You've hit on a very big difference between the United States and the Scotland.

    The United States is a very big nation, covering the same geography as that between Syria and Portugal. It is composed of a wide range of ethnicities, and these ethnicities are usually grouped in a particular region of the nation, resulting in a very heterogeneous population. It's also a very young nation. Even the earliest immigrants to these shores came just over 300 years ago.

    When Americans say, "I am Scottish" or "I am German", what they actually mean is "At least a few of my ancestors, perhaps very distant, are from Scotland/Germany." Since Americans don't really have a shared national culture/history/experience they often look towards a more distant origin where there is a particular and pronounced culture. Saying "I am an American" just doesn't communicate much about a person's background or culture.

    I am often surprised that Sean Connery and Billy Connelly are put forward as quintessential Scots. They're of Irish paternal descent. It seems odd to me that they would so quickly assimilate, particularly when the "auld sod" is so close geographically. As you often hear in the South, "If a cat had kittens in the oven it wouldn't make them biscuits..."
    25. 23rd October 16, 03:50 PM #12

    neloon
    "Some groups living in immigrant nations, especially recent arrivals hold on to a strong sense of their native lands while other groups who have lived in the new country for generations at some point seek to find their roots and where they fit in a greater sense." RSHAW, post #10
    It's an interesting socio/ethno/anthropological puzzle and I have no expertise in these disciplines. I understand what you mean by "immigrant nations" but I don't see why such seeking for roots should be peculiar to them - maybe the relative remoteness from "homeland" is a factor. So Scots are not really so "marooned" in England as they would feel in, say, the US because they are within a few hundred miles of home and therefore do not hand on a feeling of loss to their descendents. On the other hand, I suspect that , for example, Asians in the UK retain a cultural identity with their origins but only for a generation or so by which time the language barrier has broken the link. Is that replicated in the US? Within Europe, migrants fleeing persecution or hard times have come as much (though not in absolute numbers) to the UK as to the US but we do not have Greek/Italian/Polish etc. societies to preserve cultural identities to anything like the extent to which seems to happen in the US. Maybe distance, once again. Are US desires to connect with Scotland growing stronger and, if so, is that in part due to the internet and the general availability of information such as via genealogical records, XMarks etc.?

    Alan
    Last edited by neloon; 23rd October 16 at 03:53 PM.
    26. 23rd October 16, 03:01 PM #11

    Terry Searl
    Originally Posted by neloon
    (I think this may sound very rude but I'm trying to be helpful.)

    How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American and, as I understand it, you are not allowed joint citizenship with another nation. Despite its title, 99.99% of membership of this site are likewise not Scots. Of course, some fraction of their ancestry might be of Scottish origin and, before that, Viking, French, English, Italian, Polish ...
    Concern with one's forebears seems to be a particularly US thing which we don't really understand in the UK - seems to be something to do with "roots". For example, an English person with one or both Scottish parents might subconsciously be aware of such descent but few would take note of a Scots grandparent or anything further back. Think of recent UK Prime Ministers with names like MacMillan, Home, Blair, Cameron - they would not be regarded by themselves or anyone else as anything but English. In the same way, although many Scots are of recent Irish extraction, they think of themselves only as Scots. And we have 100% Scots with surnames such as Patel, D'Agostino, Ng - our next door neighbour is a very patriotic member of the clan Mojsiewicz.
    Most Scots have no concern about clans/families - they smack too much of feudalism for such a relatively left-wing country (no politics,please). So they would wear their clan tartan if they have a clan (generally by reason of surname) but that's about as far as it goes. They would probably know very little of their clan's history - why would they, what use would it be?
    I'm afraid, if you want to be Scots, you have to be born in Scotland or live in Scotland. That does not, of course, preclude you from enjoying Scottish history, our national dress, our languages, music and culture generally and we are grateful for your interest and enthusiasm. Keep it up!

    Alan
    I have noticed these same situations with our Irish relatives.....when we asked about those further in history passed the great grandfather or grandmother they have little interest
    28. 23rd October 16, 01:14 PM #10

    RSHAW

    You are not being rude, rather you are being honest and helpful
    thank you for your honest post. I believe many people in the US, as well as other countries which do not have a history as long as Scotland and other European countries desire a connection to their ancestral roots. Some groups living in immigrant nations, especially recent arrivals hold on to a strong sense of their native lands while other groups who have lived in the new country for generations at some point seek to find their roots and where the fit in a greater sense. Unfortunately the romantic vision is what appeals not recognizing that nations are dynamic and not static states. So to say "I am a Scottish",when in truth it is your great grandfather who was born in Scotland is not accurate. Further, if what one knows about Scotland is colored through the lens of a distant relative, one really does not know the modern present day Scotland. Nevertheless, it is still a great joy to respect the history and national dress of Scotland
    ________________________________________

    neloon

    Originally Posted by Bikehonda600

    If my people came from Asheville, and I found many connections there, does that mean I'm not Scottish? I just want to know for sure.
    (I think this may sound very rude but I'm trying to be helpful.)

    How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American and, as I understand it, you are not allowed joint citizenship with another nation. Despite its title, 99.99% of membership of this site are likewise not Scots. Of course, some fraction of their ancestry might be of Scottish origin and, before that, Viking, French, English, Italian, Polish ...
    Concern with one's forebears seems to be a particularly US thing which we don't really understand in the UK - seems to be something to do with "roots". For example, an English person with one or both Scottish parents might subconsciously be aware of such descent but few would take note of a Scots grandparent or anything further back. Think of recent UK Prime Ministers with names like MacMillan, Home, Blair, Cameron - they would not be regarded by themselves or anyone else as anything but English. In the same way, although many Scots are of recent Irish extraction, they think of themselves only as Scots. And we have 100% Scots with surnames such as Patel, D'Agostino, Ng - our next door neighbour is a very patriotic member of the clan Mojsiewicz.
    Most Scots have no concern about clans/families - they smack too much of feudalism for such a relatively left-wing country (no politics,please). So they would wear their clan tartan if they have a clan (generally by reason of surname) but that's about as far as it goes. They would probably know very little of their clan's history - why would they, what use would it be?
    I'm afraid, if you want to be Scots, you have to be born in Scotland or live in Scotland. That does not, of course, preclude you from enjoying Scottish history, our national dress, our languages, music and culture generally and we are grateful for your interest and enthusiasm. Keep it up!

    Alan

  6. #5
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    Alan, Jock,

    To continue the discussion so that I can better understand your views:

    Do folks in Scotland hyphenate their cultural identity? In other words, we have "African-Americans", "German-Americans", Irish-Americans", etc. Do this same practice exist in Scotland? How would a first-generation Scot of Pakistani parents describe himself?

    It seems that at least some Scots of recent immigrant backgrounds think that retaining items of cultural significance are important:




    Likewise, some Americans of recent immigrant backgrounds have not given up the kilt:


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    It's an interesting question, nationality, I'm from a several generations military family. I have a Grandfather born in Glasgow, some of his brothers were born in Ireland as was his father and some generations before that, but before then back in Scotland
    I have an uncle born in British India ( Pakistan) like him the other brothers were born wherever my grandfather was posted.
    My father was born in England, a sister born in Ireland, a sister born in cyprus, and a Gaelic speaking hebrides educated, brother born in England.
    Both sisters are married to several generations Scotsmen but their married names are from England.
    Their children and grandchildren were born in Scotland but one son lives in Canada.
    I had uncles and aunts now just cousins in Australia and New Zealand.

    From the family trees we have relatives in the USA.
    If as is possible, I'm from the royal Stewarts then I'm a descendant of the French or normans or Vikings.

    My normal answer is I'm British but European would be more accurate
    "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give"
    Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill

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    David,
    (Yes, the summary is a bit messy)
    "Do folks in Scotland hyphenate their cultural identity?"
    No. More or less uniquely, the term Italian-Scot exists though it is very little used.
    I'm not sure what Humza Yousaf calls himself but his political allegiance would suggest to me that he sees himself as a Scot with a Kenyan mother and Pakistani father. I've never heard anyone called an "Asian-Scot" or a "Pakistani-Scot" but I suppose a newspaper might use such a term for brevity.
    I believe that Craig Ferguson has US citizenship - we would still regard him as a Scot.
    I think most Scots would simply say that, if someone has a Scottish accent, they are Scots. (Of course someone may be Scots without having a Scottish accent.)

    Alan
    Last edited by neloon; 27th October 16 at 11:20 PM. Reason: typo

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    There is descent, and then there is culture.

    Some of the same things "discussed"here, I seem them almost word for word being discussed between Native Americans who grew up on the rez vice having grown up off rez, normally in a big city far from their ancestral homes.......

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  12. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie View Post
    There is descent, and then there is culture.

    Some of the same things "discussed"here, I seem them almost word for word being discussed between Native Americans who grew up on the rez vice having grown up off rez, normally in a big city far from their ancestral homes.......
    Luke,

    Thanks for your post. I suspect that there might also be similarities between Americans with distant Scottish descent and Americans whose NA ancestry is very distant and choose to participate in powwows, etc.

    I guess the tension might be between these two views:

    1) "This is my cultural thing. I'm bona fide. This doesn't belong to you. I don't want you to mess it up with your inauthentic ways."

    vs.

    2) "Okay, you can share in my cultural thing. It's not been your organic experience, but, hey, we need all the support we can get to keep this thing alive. Just, please, try to be teachable and learn how to do this thing right..."

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  14. #10
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    That statement is simultaneously precise ("99%") and vague ("few"). I'm not sure that the US/UK difference in historical immigration is as great as you imagine and certainly the current foreign-born population proportions are almost identical at 13%.
    Alan


    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    13% for the US surprised me. A media release from the Australian Bureau of Statistics in March 2016 has our foreign-born population at 28%.

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