Veterans, sams etc.

[CollinMacD]

Alan,

Thank you for your Service. Yes, it is standard to wear your miniature medals for Black tie. Hope you join SAMS, I'm sure you will enjoy it. In my Post we have quite a few Vietnam Vets. We are all Brothers and Sisters.

I hope too, very soon.

[Friday]

This is an International forum and the requirements for wearing military medals and awards will vary in each country, however, since the question addresses the Scottish American Military Association I thought I would pass along this information.

In response to question during a reunion of one of the Army artillery units I served with, I asked my Congressman for "guidance on the proper wear of military medals and decorations on civilian attire by retired and veteran Service members." The congressman passed the question along to the Pentagon's Office of the Undersecretary of Defense. A response was provided by the Director, Office of Legal Policy, Colonel, U.S. Army. In part the response was:

In short:

"Honorably discharged and retired military members may-continue to wear the medals they have earned on appropriate civilian clothing, and at appropriate settings, based on their Service-specific regulations."


Detailed Service-specific regulations:

"In general, retired and honorably discharged Service members are permitted to wear their military uniform proudly at parades on National or State holidays, other parades or ceremonies of a patriotic character in which any Active or Reserve U.S. military unit is taking part, as well as military funerals, memorial services, weddings, or inaugurals, in accordance with Department of Defense Instruction (DoDI) 1334.01 "Wearing of the Uniform." While Federal law and overall DoD policy do not state how specific military decorations may be appropriately displayed on civilian clothing; the Military Services have developed additional uniform^-regulations . . ."

Retired and former members of the Army (including Active Duty, Reserve Component, or Army National Guard) may wear all categories of authorized medals on appropriate civilian clothing. "Appropriate civilian clothing" includes apparel designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal ceremonies and social functions of a military nature. Specifically, Army Regulation (AR) 670-1, "Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia," paragraph 30-6, states that honorably-discharged personnel may wear full-size or miniature medals, and should place the medals in approximately the same location and appearance as the Army uniform. Former members of an Army unit also may wear the distinctive unit insignia on their breast pocket or lapel.

Per Air Force Instruction (AFI) 36-2903, "Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel," paragraphs 11.4, retired and honorably discharged Air Force members may wear full-size or miniature medals on civilian suits or equivalent dress on similar appropriate patriotic occasions. Medals should be worn in the approximate location and manner as the official Air Force uniform. Retirees may wear also the retired lapel pin on civilian attire, on the left lapel. If a member is authorized to wear the Command insignia pin, it should be placed on the same side, below the retired lapel pin.

Similarly, former Naval personnel are permitted to wear miniature medals and breast insignia on civilian evening dress (white tie) or civilian dinner dress (black tie) in the same manner as for dinner dress jackets, in accordance with Navy Uniform Regulations, Chapter 6, paragraph 61002, subparagraph 7. For more casual events, personnel may wear miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of lapel buttons, or ribbons made in rosette form, on the left lapel of civilian clothes, including honorable discharge and service buttons on left lapel of civilian clothes. Similarly, former members may wear miniature distinguished marksmanship and pistol shot badges as a lapel pin or as part of a tie clasp on civilian clothing.


The Marine Corps permits all decorations, medals, appropriate ribbon bars, or lapel buttons to be worn on civilian clothes at the individual Marine's discretion, in accordance with Marine Corps Uniform Regulation, MCO P1020.34G, Chapter 5, paragraph 5105. Individuals should ensure that the occasion and the manner of wearing will not reflect discredit on the Service or award. Miniature medals may be worn with civilian formal dress. For non-formal dress, miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of enameled lapel buttons, or ribbons made in rosette form, may be worn on the left lapel of civilian clothes. Honorable discharge, retirement, and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve (FMCR) buttons may be worn on the left lapel of civilian clothes except civilian evening dress. Buttons manufactured with prong and clutch fasteners may also be worn as tie-tacks.

Finally, Commandant Instruction (COMDTINST) M1020.6G, Table 3.G.1, permits U.S. Coast Guard personnel to wear miniature medals with civilian formal or evening dress (white tie). Individuals should wear their medals in the same manner as prescribed for the Formal Dress uniform, and with civilian dinner dress (black tie), in the same manner as prescribed for Dinner Dress uniforms. Per the Instruction, miniature ribbon replicas should be worn on the left lapel of other civilian clothes."

Again this is US specific information, based on the source of the question.

[GrymJack]

Thanks for the information on wear! I have been using the army regulation (AR 670-1) for guidance. Which of course does not help at all w/kilt but since I am using my Mess Dress Blue jacket it is useful for that. For anyone that still has one, or can find one, the Mess Dress Blue Jacket (or white) seems to work real well. The problem I saw looking for one was that most folks that have one, will keep it! My regular blues are too long, and the Air Force Blue and White Mess Jackets my Father-in-law left behind are significantly too small for me.

GrymJack

[carlisle401]

I suppose I am lucky in a way. I follow my Regimental Association dress code. For black tie, Prince Charlie jacket, Hunting Stewart Trews and miniture medals. For Scottish events in Phoenix, I wear one of my kilts. One thing I never do is wear headdress when attending one of these events.

I'm sure we all do SAMS proud.

[jumper]

With the veterans community being younger it now has a pool of "young blood" to draw from. But the question comes to how to attract them to SAMS? Outside of the standard parades, memorials and games Utah is looking into growth. One of our new members created us a post webpage at https://utahsamspost1847.wordpress.com/ . Using the same domain we created a email for questions and messages that all the post officers can have access to utahsamspost1847@gmail.com . We hope that improving the communication ability will help with the recruitment and passing of information since not all members have facebook.

Outside of that we are looking at getting post business cards that will only list the post information and not anyone's personal information so when post commanders change we don't have to change cards. The benefit of the cards is each member can carry some in a shirt pocket and hand them out as needed. Giving to potential member direct access to the post leadership. It was something that we were asked for multiple times during out last event at Camp Williams for the Governors Day review of the National Guard.

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[Cardinal]

With the veterans community being younger it now has a pool of "young blood" to draw from. But the question comes to how to attract them to SAMS? Outside of the standard parades, memorials and games Utah is looking into growth. One of our new members created us a post webpage at https://utahsamspost1847.wordpress.com/ . Using the same domain we created a email for questions and messages that all the post officers can have access to utahsamspost1847@gmail.com . We hope that improving the communication ability will help with the recruitment and passing of information since not all members have facebook.

Outside of that we are looking at getting post business cards that will only list the post information and not anyone's personal information so when post commanders change we don't have to change cards. The benefit of the cards is each member can carry some in a shirt pocket and hand them out as needed. Giving to potential member direct access to the post leadership. It was something that we were asked for multiple times during out last event at Camp Williams for the Governors Day review of the National Guard.

I sincerely wish you luck, as SAMS is an organization with a noble purpose.

From my perspective, I suggest you do all you can to weed out fakes. My only exposure to SAMS was at an out-of-town Scottish festival a few years back, where I was introduced to Post 1775's hero, greatly respected by the Vietnam-era gentlemen, who purported to be a Delta Force veteran of the Battle of Fallujah in 2004. Thing is, I was at Fallujah with my brigade of Iraqi Army commandos, and I know that he was lying. From his awards and talk, I believe he was an honorably retired parachute artillery master sergeant, and likely a veteran of Iraq at some point, who chose to "gild the lily."

There was no point calling him on it, as his chapter mates had no reason to believe a stranger over their much-admired member, so instead I found better company, and forever lost any interest in joining SAMS. Veterans' organizations are riddled with this disease, even in an era where military claims are easily confirmed or disproven.

The computer-savvy kids I served with in Iraq and Afghanistan don't live down to the media stereotype of Millennials, and they aren't likely to react well to posers. I hope you build an organization that will attract and keep them, because it will be great for you both.

Best,
Patrick

[carlisle401]

Patrick,

Sorry you had to experience this. You will find people like this in all countries. I served in the Royal Scots in the UK and we call them Walts (Walter Mitty) Call them out, they always are in Special Forces for some reason. Most of my mates from the British Special Forces hardly ever mention it.

I am in SAMS in Phoenix and enjoy it very much. If I was you I would join and drop small hints to him that you know what he is doing.

Good luck Patrick.

[Cardinal]

This guy is in North Carolina, I've since retired from the army and moved to Texas. His chapter mates I met, all good gentlemen with non-combat Vietnam service, were enthralled. An outsider coming in throwing bombs would not have been welcome, and certainly wouldn't have persuaded anybody. Quixotically confronting him would have made my fun day less enjoyable, so I didn't--I can be selfish that way.

Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, my point is simply that, as you only get one chance to make a first impression, your vetting should be brutal.

You've gotten me thinking. Ranger and special forces veterans in the US have started doing monthly breakfasts in many major cities, not as a formal group, but everybody is vetted before he receives an invite (invites are usually via Facebook). I wonder if that's a reaction to the US "Walts" in other veterans' groups. The vetting is easier in a small community, of course.

Regardless, best wishes. In an era when only 3% have ever served, groups like yours are more important to the public than ever.

[CollinMacD]

I am sure with the recent airing of Ken Burn's production of "Viet Nam", we will have many more war heroes who come forward with dramatic tales of glory and valor. I served my time in that war, and no television series, tales of glory, or talk can make me feel at peace or just feel better of what I went through at a very young age. Like everything else, a positive that came from this was a matured faster, got smarter at a younger age, learned how to become self reliant and most of all thank the Lord for being one who returned physically unharmed, and not being a name on a black wall.

One lesson I learned "seeing the elephant", discretion is the better part of valor. Keep you mouth shut, head down, follow orders, and help you shipmate or pard, as much as you can to survive. I find solace with my fellow Vets who went through the same, I respect organizations like SAMS, and hope to join to bring us together. I don't like being singled out as a Viet Nam veteran, nor do I talk about my wartime exploits, express my feeling or talk what I did in detail, to me this serves no purpose, as it certainly is not educational, as we as the US just seem to repeat a lesson we should have already learned from Viet Nam, sorry for getting political.

Like others, I have heard these hero people, I hear so much from Viet Nam "vets" who single handed fought off a battalion of NVR. I kno enough to listen and forget just as fast as they talk of the glorious deeds on the battlefield. Just not worth it to me to confront.


I live everyday knowing how luck I am, I am a recovered Agent Orange survivor, a rare cancer diangonsed in 2006, gave me a 3% chance to survive and I made it, cancer free now for 7 years, and formally discharge from my oncologist.
I hope to join SAMS in the near future, just as a veteran to honor my branch of the service, U.S. Coast Guard, as there on not many of us. All this war stuff is behind me, I rather not go into it, as when I came home in 1970, I was treated worse by the people my friends and yes even family members because I served, then I was in Viet Nam. Unless you lived through this time you have no idea what it was like. Even the American Legion and VFW, did nothing then to help the Viet Nam vet, many of the members were WWII and Korean War members who that we all were druggies Hippies, and lost the war. Over the years many feelings have changed, and slowiy the Viet Nam Vet is looked upon legitimately but still with reserve. I make it a point when I see another fellow Viet Nam vet to say, "Welcome home brother or sister", which means more to me then any other recognition from those same people who neglected and scorned us in the 70's. Sorry on getting heavy here, but when I read the above posts, of the "HEROES", the real ones are the ones who listen and keep much to themselves, because the real Viet Nam Vet understands what we did was honorable, what we went through upon our return was despicable and what we have to live with is not our fault, as we have been lead to believe, we have surviced, matured, and most prospered without our tales of valor.... We did it by forgiving but not forgetting, not by telling tales.

[Tobus]

I live everyday knowing how luck I am, I am a recovered Agent Orange survivor, a rare cancer diangonsed in 2006, gave me a 3% chance to survive and I made it, cancer free now for 7 years, and formally discharge from my oncologist.

Congrats on beating it! Not to get off topic, but there are far too many vets who are dying from these long-term effects. My dad, who flew F100s over Vietnam, died three years ago from cancer that some of his doctors believe may have been Agent Orange related. He was a proud veteran and career officer, but never talked much to me about what he did in the war until he knew he was near the end.