42nd F&I War Weapons

[JMorganKuberry]

Hello,
I am getting into kilt wearing for reenactment. I'm doing the 42nd during the French and Indian War, aka 7 Year's War. I've got a tomahawk, and I've ordered a Murdoch pistol so I've got a decent start. Dirks are everywhere, I'm not worried about finding a suitable one of those.


Muskets are historically limited to down to a few possible models but I am 99% sure which one I'm going with, barring a great deal on a used one or something.

What I'm really interested in getting opinions on are swords and drums. Being as that this is the weapons forum I'll stick to swords for now. There are two surviving army issue swords from this unit from the 1750's era. Does anyone know of someone selling them? The basket hilts are distinctive and so far all i can find are copies of fancier officers swords and other unique types. I can get one that is "close enough" but if anyone knows of a vendor that is currently producing the right sword I'd love to know.

Thanks!

[Steve Ashton]

As your a newbie perhaps I can share a little about X Marks that can help you.

X Marks is a kilt forum. Ever since day one we have voluntarily limited ourselves to everything there is to know about this specific topic. Over the years we have found this to be our greatest strength and draw.

Most of our members would be far more interested in why you would choose to be so specific in the description of the weapons of your outfit and yet be so vague, or what would be strange to our eyes, about the Tartan and the kilt made from it.

Yes, we do have a section of the forum for weapons and one for historical styles of dress. But to us these are looked at as accompaniments or accessories to our kilts.

This concept of keeping our focus on the kilt may be strange to some new members and perhaps not readily apparent to others. This is why I am pointing it out.

There are many good forums out there which may be able to give you a far better answer to this specific question of the correct weapon for your outfit. Have you searched out those other sources of information?

If you want to know the correct Tartan for this unit, at the time period you have chosen, if you want to know the specific details of how a kilt from this period was made and worn we are the single best place for that type of information.

Giving you help with this question, - - Well, maybe not the topic we are as good with.
I guess what I am trying to get across is that there is a lot of good information out there. Don't limit yourself to one source and don't expect a forum dedicated to the kilt to have all the information you need to build your outfit just because your outfit has a kilt in in it.

[Luke MacGillie]

The material culture of the Highland Regiments happens to be my main focus at the moment, everything from how the button holes were constructed, to what weapons were carried.

I will post what I have tonight, but suffice to say, that a Murdoch pistol is wrong for an enlistedman, and tomhawks are as well.

The Regiment here in North America went thru a number of rearmings, early period weapons should be Dublin Castle marked, as they were on the Irish Establishment prior to deployment.

Carbines became the norm midway thru.

As to swords, there is only one maker of Regimental hilt swords, GG Godwin It must be a backsword, not a broadsword.

As to any claims that the men might have brought their own from home, that does not stand up to the Quartermaster documents that I have, showing how many swords, pistols, camp axes ect that were issued.

[Orvis]

Before you buy anything, check with your new unit to get their requirements/recommendations as to suppliers of cloth, tartan and so forth.

I concur with Luke as to his assessment of weapons for the F&I 42nd Regiment. G. Gedney Godwin still sells the regimental backsword - the hilt is an accurate copy of those produced for Highland regiments in the 3rd quarter of the 18th c. The blade is okay, but won't stand much abuse - somewhat soft steel. Also, the scabbard is wood lined, which is not authentic for the 1750's - the originals scabbards were made from pasteboard with a thin leather wrap, and probably iron fittings. I have a Mad Piper regimental backsword with a proper blade and scabbard, but it isn't for sale :-) Sadly, Mad Piper (Donnie Shearer) is not making swords anymore. As to dirks, you don't really need one - they were not issued and it depended on whether the soldier could afford one. Higher ranks (serjeants and officers) very likely had dirks. As to a pistol, they were issued in pairs. Your pistol would probably be okay for an officer, but not for a private soldier. There is one dealer who sells proper enlisted pistols: Middlesex Village Trading Company. If you get one, be very careful if you intend to shoot it with ball ammo - there have been quality concerns - I am personally aware of one Brown Bess of theirs that exploded a barrel with blank ammo. My understanding is that their gun barrels are not proof-tested. If you just want a pistol for looks, then no problem. NO sgian dhu! Hadn't been adapted then.

A couple of books that you will want to read before you lay your money down:

John Wallace, Scottish Swords and Dirks, Stackpole Books, 1970
Anthony D. Darling, Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784, Andrew Mowbray, Inc Publishers, 1988
Anthony D. Darling, Weapons of the Highland Regiments 1740-1780, Museum Restoration Service, 1970/1995
Anthony D. Darling, Red Coat and Brown Bess, Museum Restoration Service, 1970
De Witt Bailey, Ph.D, Small Arms of the British Forces in America 1664-1815, Andrew Mowbray, Inc Publishers, 2009
James D. Scarlett, The Origins and Development of Military Tartans: A Re-Appraisal, Partizan Press, 2003

You can acquire these from reputable used book dealers - you might check Alibris.com - they will not be cheap (especially the first one), but should inform you with everything you need to know about regimental weapons.

I would also suggest reading some of the research papers on Peter E. MacDonalds website (www.scottishtartans.co.uk) - has excellent papers on regimental tartans, how 18th c. Highlanders probably wore their belted plaids, etc.


As to uniforms, what period of the war will you be portraying? Early war = buff facings and single-breasted jackets. Late war = blue facings and lapels. The regiment also wore belted plaids, philabegs with blue leggings, and sometimes wore moccasins in lieu of shoes.

Anyway, just something to think about.

[Luke MacGillie]

Arms Issued to the Highland Regiments in America 1756-1763

42nd Regiment:
29 January, 1756 – Augmentation: 490 muskets & bayonets w/ steel rammers. (not issued)
3 August, 1756 – Arms return: 549 Muskets w/ wood rammers, 490 lacking
25 July, 1757 – Augmentation: 312 muskets & bayonets w/ wood rammers, 324 side pistols w/ straps.
24 July, 1758 – Augmentation: 728 muskets & bayonets w/ wood rammers, 756 side pistols w/ straps.
1 May, 1759 – Rearmed: 2080 carbines & bayonets w/ wood rammers, 2160 side pistols w/ straps.
29 May, 1759 – Board of Ordnance indicated carbines could not be supplied, muskets sent instead.
4 August, 1760 – CiC General Order:
The Royal Highland Bn & Montgomery’s will new make all of their Cartridges & will apply to Col. Williiamson for a Carbine Measure, which will exactly follow in the making of them.
Note – Most likely 1730, 1730/40 or 1742 pattern muskets were supplied.

All information drawn from:
Bailey, De Witt. Small Arms of the British Forces in America 1664-1815. Woonsocket, RI: Andrew Mowbray Inc. p 167-170.

[JMorganKuberry]

The Gedney is the one I was "looking" at... but the pics are dead on his website so it's not much to look at!

I'll try and find copies of those books. Still reading my way through a pile of general histories and such.

I have no intention of getting a sgian dubh. The pistol is indeed from MVT Co. but I might die of old age before it arrives. The website says "4 to 8 weeks, maybe longer". It's been 17 weeks and I am still 97th down his work list. I would have ordered the musket from him, but, not now.

Pretty sure I'm going with Loyalist Arms out of Canada for a musket.

As for the specific unit, it will be the 9th company of the 2/42nd.

[JMorganKuberry]

Before you buy anything, check with your new unit to get their requirements/recommendations as to suppliers of cloth, tartan and so forth.

The local 42nd unit uses knife pleated gov't set kilts that appear to be from modern formal wear stores or pipe band suppliers. I have a basic kit hammered together already. Box pleated philabeg, moccassins, etc.

Why would the quartermaster record privately owned weapons? I have seen 18th century writing about the tomahawks. Is it possible they are using the term interchangeably with army issue hatchets?

[JMorganKuberry]

There are many good forums out there which may be able to give you a far better answer to this specific question of the correct weapon for your outfit. Have you searched out those other sources of information?

Oh yes! I am in contact with other 18th century reenactors and reading my way through a mountain of books. X-Marks is just one more source to draw expertise from.

[MacRob]

Have to weigh in on the firearms you are reviewing, understanding your initial questions were about swords and dirks. Those questions have been answered I believe. Incidentally the GGG regimental sword is a good choice but, as Luke said it should be a back sword, which was what was issued to the privates. This sword is mild steel so keep that in mind.

As far as pistols, the Murdoch is the wrong choice for more than one reason. The only two pistols that were actually issued to the Highland Regiments were, as far as I know, the John Waters produced pistol, made in London and the Isaac Bissell pistol from Birmingham. MVT provides a copy of the Bissell, which is a better choice from an aesthetic standpoint. However, as Orvis points out, the quality of these guns is suspect. They are made in India and no, they are not proofed. Further, I would not fire a proof load in one of them for a million dollars! I have one of the Murdochs which I got from MVT and no powder has ever gone down the barrel. It is a wall hanger. The best thing would be, if you can find one, a Waters pistol. These guns were made in Italy and England, prior to the Bi-centennial and afterward. They may still be made, I do not know. I have one. The pistol, if it were not for the Italian proofs and maker’s name, would visually pass muster as an original. However, the stock is cast when the originals were hammered out of thin sheets of bronze over a mandrel. The lock is a Highland lock, like the original and works well. The lock on my Murdoch has a very heavy mainspring and eats flints. It does not spark well and the half cock notch is in the wrong location - I cannot close the priming pan all the way with the lock at half cock. All this is moot, however, if your regiment has a requirement that you be armed otherwise.

One clarification to Luke’s post regarding firearms. The term carbine in that era referred to a shorter and lighter musket, of a smaller caliber than the Long Land Pattern, i.e. Brown Bess. These muskets were not short, like we think of carbines these days but they were shorter. Few of them were rifled but at one point, the best marksmen in the Black Watch were issued rifled carbines.

Hope this helps. The F&I War is a fascinating subject.

[JMorganKuberry]

The brass pistol was my first choice but as near as I can tell no one sells them anymore.

I ordered a MTV RHR pistol but a local unit says they prefer people to carry the Murdoch so I changed my order. This was back in March. Now I am reading on here that MTV guns are dangerous to use and I'm considering canceling my order and eating the 20% cancellation fee. I'd like to at least take my flintlock pistol to a firing range a couple times. Can anyone provide a link to someone that sells a safe Murdoch or regimental issue pistol?

I don't actually have a regiment unit to join in the typical sense. I have three friendly units around(ish) that I can fall in with and one that identify myself with on paper. But I'm effectively starting a unit of one.

My choices for musket at this point, all from Loyalist Arms in Canada, are basically a long land pattern, or a LLP with cut down barrel, or an artillery carbine.

The Gedney one is supposedly a backsword made in the issue style but not picture is on his site of it. http://gggodwin-com.3dcartstores.com...449_p_716.html He has not yet replied to a request for clarification.