WW1 Scottish doublet tunic - information wanted

[Jags]

Hi all,

I've been collecting bits and bobs of Scottish WW1 military uniform for a little while now and just purchased what looks to be a beautiful, almost mint condition scarlet doublet. Not sure if I've paid over the odds as I couldn't find too many prices online of similar jackets to compare, but I love it and that'll comfort me until the credit card bill arrives! By the way, I haven't received it yet so I'm going on photos for now.

From the research I have done I think the Seaforth's and HLI wore this style (red/yellow) as well as at least one Canadian regiment that I know of.

The ticket refers to 1888 and Oct 1912 - I'm guessing this was issued in Oct 1912 and is an 1888 pattern?

It has General Service buttons but no evidence of collar or shoulder badges that I can make out in the photos. Maybe it wasn't issued?

Does anyone know what the D under the W^D stands for?

If anyone can tell me anything about this doublet or this style of doublet i'd love to know.

Cheers!

[OC Richard]

Keep in mind that in the British Army, Full Dress was abolished in 1914, never to return. (There are a few exceptions such as bandsmen.)

So that doublet shouldn't be considered a WWI item; it wouldn't have been worn at any time during the war.

It's true that Officers at their own expense could maintain Full Dress doublets, though they would be worn with Levee Dress, not on parade with the troops, who only had Service Dress, from 1914 to 1953. (In 1953 a new Number One Dress was introduced, with Archer Green doublets, still worn today by the Royal Regiment Of Scotland.)

The Broad Arrow mark appears on most British military items.

Your doublet would be the sort worn by Other Ranks, that is, Privates and Sergeants. Certain Senior Sergeants, in photographs, can be seen wearing bespoke doublets rather than standard issue doublets.

Just to give some background, doublets were introduced to the Scottish regiments in 1855. The initial 1855 doublets were double-breasted and had slash cuffs. The collar and cuffs displayed the traditional Facing Colour of the particular regiment; the epaulettes were scarlet matching the body of the doublet.

These facing-colours were (at the start of the 19th century)

42nd Foot: blue
71st & 78th Foot: buff
72nd, 75th, 91st, 92nd, and 93rd Foot: yellow
73rd & 79th Foot: dark green (the 79th switched to blue when they became a Royal regiment in 1873)
74th Foot: white

In 1856 the doublets were changed from double-breasted to single-breasted.

In 1868 the cuffs were changed from slash cuffs to gauntlet cuffs, and have remained so ever since.

(Here's my thread about cuff styles http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...jackets-86929/ )

In 1881 the old numbered regiments were paired into new named regiments, and all non-Royal regiments were put into yellow facings.

Your doublet there has the higher closed collar introduced in 1900.

Here's the short-lived original 1855 doublet, double-breasted, here worn by Officers of the 93rd Foot (which became part of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders in 1881). Note the Dirk Belt worn under the doublet.



Here's a doublet (the Black Watch of Canada) showing the plain red epaulettes which were original to the 1856 model Other Ranks doublets. I can't remember what year the British Army changed the epaulettes on Highland doublets from scarlet to the Facing Colour, I think it was after 1900.

[Jags]

Keep in mind that in the British Army, Full Dress was abolished in 1914.

So that doublet shouldn't be considered a WWI item.

It's true that Officers at their own expense could maintain Full Dress doublets, though they would be worn with Levee Dress, not on parade with the troops, who only had Service Dress.

This situation remained until 1953 when a new Number One Dress was introduced, with Archer Green doublets, still worn today by the Royal Regiment Of Scotland.

The Broad Arrow mark appears on most British military items.

Your doublet would be the sort worn by Other Ranks, that is, Privates and Sergeants. Certain Senior Sergeants, in photographs, can be seen wearing bespoke doublets rather than standard issue doublets.

Just to give some background, doublets were introduced to the Scottish regiments in 1855. The initial 1855 doublets were double-breasted and had slash cuffs. The collar and cuffs displayed the traditional Facing Colour of the particular regiment; the epaulettes were scarlet matching the body of the doublet.

These facing-colours were (at the start of the 19th century)

42nd Foot: blue
71st & 78th Foot: buff
72nd, 75th, 91st, 92nd, and 93rd Foot: yellow
73rd & 79th Foot: dark green (the 79th switched to blue when they became a Royal regiment in 1873)
74th Foot: white

In 1856 the doublets were changed from double-breasted to single-breasted.

In 1868 the cuffs were changed from slash cuffs to gauntlet cuffs, and have remained so ever since.

(Here's my thread about cuff styles http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...jackets-86929/ )

In 1881 the old numbered regiments were paired into new named regiments, and all non-Royal regiments were put into yellow facings.

Your doublet there has the higher closed collar introduced in 1900.

Here's the short-lived original 1855 doublet, double-breasted, here worn by Officers of the 93rd Foot (which became part of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders in 1881). Note the Dirk Belt worn under the doublet.



Here's a doublet (the Black Watch of Canada) showing the plain red epaulettes which were original to the 1856 model Other Ranks doublets

Cheers for your reply, this is really interesting.

Does the label with 1888 and Oct 1912 not suggest it is WW1?

Thanks.

[plaid preacher]

Cheers for your reply, this is really interesting.

Does the label with 1888 and Oct 1912 not suggest it is WW1?

Thanks.

No. World War I began in 1914. I suspect you may be correct it was a doublet that was made but not issued, or had a very short life, before being withdrawn from service.

[Jags]

No. World War I began in 1914. I suspect you may be correct it was a doublet that was made but not issued, or had a very short life, before being withdrawn from service.

Of course it did. I sound thick, don't I! I just meant that it was that sort of age, i.e. Pre WW1 or used during WW1 and certainly before WW2.

[Jags]

I found this article online which helped me decode the W^D acceptance stamp inside my doublet. It is W^D over O:

'Pre-war:
Two types of acceptance stamps could be found on jackets prior to the outbreak of the Great War. For articles manufactured under contract the acceptance stamp consisted of the War Department broad arrow over a number and year. Since articles of clothing were only viewed at the RACD depot at Pimlico this might correspond to the month and year of acceptance. The other pre-war stamp was for articles made at the Royal Army Clothing Factory (RACF) and this only consisted of the W/\D with a letter code.'

It goes on to state:

'Stamps I've encountered have the codes A, B, E, L, M, O, and P

I believe that

A=Aldershot
B=Birmingham (?)
E =Edinburgh
L=Leeds
M=Marlyborne
O=Olympia
P=Pimlico'

So it appears that the stamp tallies with the 1912 label date and it was made at the Royal Army Clothing Factory in Olympia, London. I think an abbreviation of Royal Army Clothing Factory is just about legible on the label too.

It's good fun playing detective

[dutchy kilted]

Quick question, since I am not familiar with some of the terms:

When you say, "Levee Dress, not on parade with the troops, who only had Service Dress," could you tell me what Levee Dress and Service Dress mean? Thanks in advance!

By the way, that is an amazing doublet!

[Jags]

Cheers for your reply, this is really interesting.

Does the label with 1888 and Oct 1912 not suggest it is WW1?

Thanks.

In addition to Dutchy_Kilted's question, I was interested that you drew attention the the wearing of the Dirk Belt under the doublet. Do you know when this changed to on top of the doublet?

Thanks.

[The Q]

Quick question, since I am not familiar with some of the terms:

When you say, "Levee Dress, not on parade with the troops, who only had Service Dress," could you tell me what Levee Dress and Service Dress mean? Thanks in advance!

By the way, that is an amazing doublet!

Roughly speaking,
Levee Dress was the top level of dress orginally meant for audiences with the King or Queen, much gold, braid, feathers etc.. This later came down to lower levels of meeting normally some sort of celebration which all the officers would be expected to attend in full Levee dress. Often a sort of very formally dressed party with an honoured guest and everyone on very best behaviour.

Service dress is that which you see on formal parade today, in many cases today the top level of dress. (in my RAF terms that is Number 1 dress). Certainly thats the top level of Dress for the troops.

Officers a have a variation called Mess Dress which is different depending on what branch of the services you are from or what regiment. I suppose the nearest to that level would be a Prince Charlie in Kilted terms.. but with minature medals and the jacket and trousers are in the regiment or services colours..

Below that is working dress or in my RAF terms Number 2 uniform.

where's Jock when you need him He'd be much better explaining most of this that me...

[figheadair]

Roughly speaking,
Levee Dress was the top level of dress orginally meant for audiences with the King or Queen, much gold, braid, feathers etc.. This later came down to lower levels of meeting normally some sort of celebration which all the officers would be expected to attend in full Levee dress. Often a sort of very formally dressed party with an honoured guest and everyone on very best behaviour.

Service dress is that which you see on formal parade today, in many cases today the top level of dress. (in my RAF terms that is Number 1 dress). Certainly thats the top level of Dress for the troops.

Officers a have a variation called Mess Dress which is different depending on what branch of the services you are from or what regiment. I suppose the nearest to that level would be a Prince Charlie in Kilted terms.. but with minature medals and the jacket and trousers are in the regiment or services colours..

Below that is working dress or in my RAF terms Number 2 uniform.

where's Jock when you need him He'd be much better explaining most of this that me...

In the Army; No1 Dress = Blues/Patrols, No2 = Service Dress (FAD), No5 Dress = Tropical, No8 Dress = Working Dress (Combats) etc.