Quality Sporrans for less money

[Profane James]

Here ya go

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VECCHIA-COR...UAAOSwepJXZsPj

Interesting/confusing...almost worth it to see if they are REAL.
Sure hope those drones are in tune!

[OC Richard]

I too like the sense of community that helping others spot diamonds in the rough...

...not something the casual forum member would be aware of or would even have cared about until someone explained the significance...

...spoon-fed to anyone who happens upon the forum.

The casual forum members and people who happen upon the forum are, in my opinion, just as much part of our community as anyone else, and are perhaps the people who will most be helped by the information about how to wisely shop for used kit.

...promoting "affordable" items is a little self-defeating, as increased competition makes it less affordable. It's not so much an issue of ethics and, as stated above, I know that it's made with the best intentions. Think of it like a great local bar or restaurant - the minute someone starts talking about it on Yelp or some forum, getting a table becomes impossible.

Your point is well taken and I mulled over the ethics of it before I started this thread. In the end I decided that, for me, the most important thing is to share information and give guidance.

If I didn't make it clear earlier (perhaps I did not) I have no connexion with any of these Ebay sellers and my purpose is not to promote or endorse those people. However I think the clearest way to show people what to look for is to use concrete examples.

My philosophy is that Ebay is public information, and everyone should have just as much access to what's available there as they should have to the under-the-radar restaurant you mention. If I find a great restaurant I'll tell anybody who will listen! I want my friends to have wonderful meals and I want the restaurant to thrive.

Another point is, how many vintage sporrans does any one person need? I pointed out 20 or so items; surely there's enough to go around. If, on the other hand, somebody's intention is not to get a sporran for their own use, but to snap up every bargain they can find and then flip them for a profit, I feel no pangs of remorse.

[Steve Ashton]

As there was recently a question put to the staff concerning this thread - and as the forum's advertising policies fall under my purview - I thought it best that I respond publicly to the concerns that have been raised.

The concern raised was not about a rule being broken and the staff have determined that no rule was broken.

The question was more about the fine line between keeping people informed, passing on by word-of-mouth a new discovery, promotion of a company, and indirect advertising.

For as long as this forum has been around, one of the hallmarks has been honest and forthright reviews of products. Another hallmark has been an opportunity for members to show off their outfits and any new items they may have purchased.

One of the problems we have faced since we took on our first paying advertiser back in 2004 was how to separate the 'drive-by' advertising and promotion that plagues some sites, from those reputable companies that choose to support this forum.

We developed our advertising policy with these in mind.

We have publicly published our Policy on Advertising Promotion and Product Reviews in our Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) section -

Please notice the parts I have highlighted in red below -

Our policy on advertising, promotion and product reviews

Advertising & Promotion
Our members want access to a wide array of kilts and kilt related products and services. To provide this we have accepted paid advertising from select companies who wish to present their products to our membership.

Advertising and/or Promotion are defined as:
"A form of communication used to encourage, persuade, drive or induce an audience to take or continue some action concerning a commercial offering. It can be used to change or reinforce consumer behavior or offer assurances to consumers. Advertising often involves repetition of an image or product name in an effort to associate certain qualities with the image or name.
Advertising does not always involve the direct sale of a good or service. An example would be the case of a public service announcement. If the result is an increase in awareness of a good or service it is advertising and /or promotion."
Any member of the forum who produces a kilt or kilt related product and who wishes to advertise on the forum will be directed to our advertising plan for details of our ad space and rates.

No other advertising or promotion will be allowed except those listed in the advertising plan.

Posting in the DIY, For Sale, and Photo Galleries
The DIY Section is intended as a place to share ideas and accomplishments of items made by our members for their personal use. It is not intended to be a "show room" for new products being introduced by any commercial enterprise.

The “For Sale” section of the forum is intended for private sales of items owned by our members for their personal use. No product or service will be listed, or linked to, in the “For Sale” section by any Commercial Enterprise.

The posting of photos on the forum or in the "Photo Galleries" is intended for our members to show off their own, personally owned, kilts, accessories, and outfits. Posting photos of products for sale by any commercial enterprise other than paid advertisers is not allowed.

Product Reviews & Endorsements
One of the functions of X Marks is to allow open and honest reviews of kilts, kilt related products and services.

Product Reviews are the best way for new members to gain information about suppliers. We encourage our members to post Product Reviews. All reviews must be about a product purchased for the members own use. Product reviews must contain only verifiable factual information.

Negative product reviews are also encouraged as an important warning to other potential buyers, but the reviewer must be very careful not to denigrate or libel the manufacturer or supplier. Negative reviews must contain only verifiable factual information.

If member wishes to post a review, of a product purchased from one of our advertisers, it would be best if the review is posted in that advertisers section of the forum.

Product Endorsements, while not prohibited, are not encouraged. We understand that everyone has their favorite supplier, but endorsements often cross the line and become unauthorized advertisements. Any endorsement of a product must have the approval of the manufacturer or seller. Endorsements must contain only verifiable factual information. Defining when a Product Endorsement crosses the line and becomes Advertising will rest solely with the Forum Owner. For example: an endorsement made as a first post would be very suspicious.



I would ask our members to keep these points in mind as they attempt to help and inform others.

I seriously doubt that a thread that simply presented the features that make a quality product, and how to identify those features, (without including examples of commercial offerings), would not have raised the question that was presented to the staff.

If we hold a member to a standard within the DIY, For Sale, or Photo Galleries sections of the forum should we not apply the same standard across the entire forum?

Would it be considered fair to highlight or mention commercial offerings from companies that have chosen not to support this forum?

[Profane James]

Copy that, Roger wilco.

[Dunbar]

The casual forum members and people who happen upon the forum are, in my opinion, just as much part of our community as anyone else, and are perhaps the people who will most be helped by the information about how to wisely shop for used kit.



Your point is well taken and I mulled over the ethics of it before I started this thread. In the end I decided that, for me, the most important thing is to share information and give guidance.

If I didn't make it clear earlier (perhaps I did not) I have no connexion with any of these Ebay sellers and my purpose is not to promote or endorse those people. However I think the clearest way to show people what to look for is to use concrete examples.

My philosophy is that Ebay is public information, and everyone should have just as much access to what's available there as they should have to the under-the-radar restaurant you mention. If I find a great restaurant I'll tell anybody who will listen! I want my friends to have wonderful meals and I want the restaurant to thrive.

Another point is, how many vintage sporrans does any one person need? I pointed out 20 or so items; surely there's enough to go around. If, on the other hand, somebody's intention is not to get a sporran for their own use, but to snap up every bargain they can find and then flip them for a profit, I feel no pangs of remorse.

I appreciate this thread. I have been a member of X for less than a year and am educating myself be reading. I'm not ready to invest in the Sporrans that I want to keep for life. I also do not like the look of the cheap ones. I picked up one of the former 'hire' sporrans in the OP and will use it until I learn enough. I am good at getting what I want on eBay and when the time is right I will be in the hunt. Your concrete examples do help!

[kingandrew]

I am sure that the OP's purpose is to educate the members of this forum and to help them distinguish quality from otherwise when they search for a specific sort of kilt-related item. This is not a commercial message, although commercial images are being used to illustrate his points.

The Ebay photos and information will be part of the post long after the auctions referenced have ended. By giving concrete examples, OC Richard has helped the readers not only see and distinguish the details he find important, but has raised their awareness of the opportunity to acquire these items in a convenient, legal way.

We are now armed with information that will help us all when we do wish to find such a sporran.

As none of us is likely to be hoarding 100s of vintage sporrans to keep them out of circulation or artificially inflate prices, I see no harm. And since all these listings are temporary, any harm possible could only take place over the course of the past few days. Any real danger should be past now, or very soon.

One can look at the original listings to see if any "bidding wars" ensued from the post. My guess is they did not and this has been a safe and friendly sharing of information among like-minds hobbyists, rather than a for-profit attempt at guerrilla or ambush marketing.

Thank you to the OP for the education and to the Mods for seriously considering civility, rules, and goals of this forum.

Andrew

[OC Richard]

If the result is an increase in awareness of a good or service it is advertising and /or promotion.

Thanks for bringing my attention to those rules, which I hadn't read (or maybe just didn't remember).

I'm trying to fully understand their meaning. The line above appears to ban any discussion of any goods or services (except of course those offered by paid advertisers) because to mention something is to increase awareness of it.

"All reviews must be about a product purchased for the members own use."

This line bans the purpose of my thread, to bring attention to offerings I have not purchased.

"Any endorsement of a product must have the approval of the manufacturer or seller."

This line, if taken literally, bans the endorsement of anything made by a firm not currently in business, like my recommendation of vintage Nicoll Brothers sporrans.

"One of the functions of X Marks is to allow open and honest reviews of kilts, kilt related products and services."

But restricted to reviews of offerings of the paid advertisers, with prior approval, if the rules above are taken literally.

One thing about the above rules is that they make a distinction between "product reviews" and "product endorsements". If a review is positive it is also an endorsement (if these words have their usual meanings).

Another language issue is the precise meaning of "commercial offering". If a private individual is selling something to you in your home is it a commercial offering? What if the same transaction happens between the same two private individuals here on XMarks? What if the same transaction happens between the same two individuals on Ebay? Is it now a commercial offering?

[Piobair]

The casual forum members and people who happen upon the forum are, in my opinion, just as much part of our community as anyone else, and are perhaps the people who will most be helped by the information about how to wisely shop for used kit.



Your point is well taken and I mulled over the ethics of it before I started this thread. In the end I decided that, for me, the most important thing is to share information and give guidance.

If I didn't make it clear earlier (perhaps I did not) I have no connexion with any of these Ebay sellers and my purpose is not to promote or endorse those people. However I think the clearest way to show people what to look for is to use concrete examples.

My philosophy is that Ebay is public information, and everyone should have just as much access to what's available there as they should have to the under-the-radar restaurant you mention. If I find a great restaurant I'll tell anybody who will listen! I want my friends to have wonderful meals and I want the restaurant to thrive.

Another point is, how many vintage sporrans does any one person need? I pointed out 20 or so items; surely there's enough to go around. If, on the other hand, somebody's intention is not to get a sporran for their own use, but to snap up every bargain they can find and then flip them for a profit, I feel no pangs of remorse.

I wasn’t accusing you of being unethical, just pointing out my feelings on the topic. And hey, if I was selling one of those sporrans, I certainly wouldn’t mind the attention.

Applying the same logic as others used above regarding the likelihood (or lack there of) of a bidding war, I think it’s probsbly similarly unlikely that there are very many people flipping vintage sporrans - the margins are just way too low.

As far as the rules about advertisers - I’m of the opinion that the mods can do what they gotta do.

At the end of the day, as long as the end result is fewer people wearing belts with waistcoats or flashes on their calves, I’m happy.

[Antipodean Celt]

A short note of support OC Richard. I found your advice extremely helpful and valuable. I read your posts with interest, and always learn something. This thread gave me the confidence to know what I am looking for in the great and wild jungle that is Ebay, and I will certainly keep my eyes open for that interesting sporran.

I completely respect Steve's view and rules, and obviously the forum benefits from those rules, lest we descend into chaos (as many forums do).

Might I suggest that you continue to highlight interesting sporrans that you find out there in the big wide world marketplace, but refrain from posting until after the sale has concluded, or perhaps de-identify the seller or the marketplace (ie just show the photos). That might be within the rules whilst also allowing you to guide your very ignorant students who greatly benefit from your knowledge and experience.

Just a thought.

Kind regards,

John

[48HofC]

One of the issues with using examples of sporrans listed on eBay is the seller might not be to keen on having their sales copied to another website. If they wanted there wares on xmarks, they would have put them in the classified section. I know if something I had for sale appeared on here(and I do sell Scottish military kit on eBay) with comments gleaned from web surfing knowledge, I wouldn’t be exactly happy about it.