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24th April 18, 10:00 AM
#11
Originally Posted by Jumpmonkey
I imagine the setup costs will be huge. I used to run a printing press. Most of what you are paying for (on a typical job) is press setup, after that, the more copies your run the less you pay per sheet. Warping a loom is quite a process (I knew a girl who was quite the weaver, it was impressive to watch her work.) I'd be shocked beyond shocked if someone was out there weaving short-runs of tartan and selling it at or marginally above the standard cost. It just defies reason.
I used to be a Chopper, aka Paper Cutter / Bindery Tech. Acquiring the wool, &/or dying it to the particular colour is another part of the set up cost. Same as ordering in, & trimming stock to size for a job.
"I can draw a mouse with a pencil, but I can't draw a pencil with a mouse"
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24th April 18, 11:05 AM
#12
To warp a loom is a manual (read by hand) operation. There are some computerized machines that will wind the warp yarns onto a spool but tying the new yarns onto the old yarns and insuring they are all in the proper heddles is still done by hand.
There is always waste. Some at the very beginning to get the yarns warped into the loom and some at the end to get the fabric off the loom.
This same operation is done every time a loom is warped. It is the same if your plan is to weave 11 meters or 11,000 meters.
The current quotes the weaving mills are giving me is that the absolute minimum length of fabric that can be woven by modern, computer controlled, double-width looms is approx. 11 meters.
So how most weaving mills price their cloth is by the amount of fabric produced in a single run. The cost is higher for shorter runs because they must manually warp the loom more often to produce short runs and there is more waste between each run.
As the amount of yardage increases the price can come down. After the manual work to warp the loom it is basically someone watching to insure that nothing goes wrong like a broken yarn.
But, as a kilt requires approx 4 linear yards of double-width fabric (approx. 60 inches wide) or 8 yards of single width fabric (approx. 27 inches wide) some weaving companies are putting in one or two single width looms which are used for custom runs. A single width loom requires less manual labor and produces less waste per run.
For example one weaving company is quoting a "To the trade" price, for double-width 16oz wool, of -
£40.95 for a minimum of 11 meters up to 25 meters.
£29.30 for a minimum of 26 meters up to 40 meters.
£23.63 for a minimum of 41 meters up to 56 meters.
£20.16 for a minimum of 57 meters up to 63 meters.
and £18.90 for a run of 64 meters or more.
This compares to £16.75 for a length cut off a roll of already produced fabric that is sitting on a shelf.
So, if you wish to design your own Tartan or wish to have a short run of fabric woven please expect to pay at least ($57.25usd) per meter or more than twice the amount ($26.42usd) for a similar length ordered from stock fabrics off the shelf. (Retail pricing may be more and you must be prepared for the shipping and any applicable taxes or duty.)
Steve Ashton
www.freedomkilts.com
Skype (webcam enabled) thewizardofbc
I wear the kilt because: Swish + Swagger = Swoon.
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24th April 18, 12:36 PM
#13
Doing your genealogy and building your family tree is a rewarding and fun hobby. Many people spend years tracking down the paperwork trail that constitutes a genealogy.
The whole idea of typing your last name into a search is sort of misleading. There many be many thousands of people with the same last name who are no relation at all.
Not everyone within a valley would have the same last name and someone with the same last name may live somewhere completely different.
Names are a very poor indicator of where someone is from.
So a genealogy is a paper chase. You can start with your birth certificate. This will give you the names of your two parents. Perhaps where they come from. You go to that place and find the next piece of paper in the trail. A marriage license, a tax record, a deed. Any piece of paper that is proof of an unbroken line.
If you go back just five generations, you have 16 grandparents, who may have 16 different names and come from 16 different places.
If you do not have an unbroken paper trail - you do not yet have a genealogy.
And please remember that how a name was spelled then may be quite a bit different from how you spell it today. In the not too distant past most people had little or no schooling. Many names are spelled as they sound or were heard by the person filling in the tax record or census form.
Written records are fragile things. Fire, flood and neglect have destroyed many. Keeping records, storing them, sorting them and filing them is labor intensive.
Even the records we search for today with our computers rely on those hand written records. Mistakes happen. And those tasked with those records are often not among the most highly paid or respected professions.
Most people today can find the paper trail back only three or four generations before running into a break in the trail. If you are among that small percentage of people with a paper trail back to before the mid 1800's consider yourself very fortunate and thank those who kept such good records.
I myself have only one Scottish connection. One of my father's grandfathers, in 1842, listed on a census form, that his father was born in Scotland. We have not been able to get any further back in that line. On my Mother's side the written record goes back to before the American Revolution to French Heugunots and a land grant in New Hampshire.
Consequentially I wear no Clan Tartans. I wear the X Marks Tartan. The Black Watch Weathered and the Isle of Skye simply because I love the colors, The HBC because I live in Canada and the USMC Dress Blue.
Steve Ashton
www.freedomkilts.com
Skype (webcam enabled) thewizardofbc
I wear the kilt because: Swish + Swagger = Swoon.
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24th April 18, 01:10 PM
#14
What Steve posted is very true. My Grandparents were married at a local Mission, in 1917. Records were lost in a fire, 8 years later. In Spain, my Grandmother's birth records were lost in a fire. My father's birth records were lost in a fire (Oklahoma). Doing the last name search, is difficult on a good day. I'm one of the fortunate with family records back to late 1600's-early 1700's. Our case, 3 families, same names, same time, near each other in Maryland, not related. 2 UK, one Swedish. On one of the Genealogy forums, someone tried to hijack my lineage, & claim it to be part of theirs. Reality, it appeared their family left the Colonies, or died with no record. Hence, grabbing another line. Simply based on names, seen online. DNA testing confirmed no connection to the British Isles.
Back to the thread, one thing I've learned in my short time, here. If you like the kilt, wear the kilt. Connection is great, a personal thing. Otherwise, find what turns your crank.
"I can draw a mouse with a pencil, but I can't draw a pencil with a mouse"
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24th April 18, 02:37 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Baeau
Back to the thread, one thing I've learned in my short time, here. If you like the kilt, wear the kilt. Connection is great, a personal thing. Otherwise, find what turns your crank.
I've finally gotten used to the "what's up with the kilt" question to answer semi coherently. I simply explain, I am not Scottish, but I'm a big fan of the kilt and I enjoy wearing it. So far I've not been hauled away to an undisclosed location by the (KSP) Kilted Secret Police as an imposter.
If we're turning a crank, I prefer a good old' gas powered hit-or-miss engine, with a sizeable fly-wheel.
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24th April 18, 03:25 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Jumpmonkey
..If we're turning a crank, I prefer a good old' gas powered hit-or-miss engine, with a sizeable fly-wheel...
Naaah!
This is OK for the forum, Sir JYS, is a very proud Scot. Has been know to wear the kilt. Normally seen in public with his Royal Stewart tartan cap.
"I can draw a mouse with a pencil, but I can't draw a pencil with a mouse"
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24th April 18, 06:40 PM
#17
Originally Posted by Old Building Prof
This all of course leaves me with a real mess in trying to figure out the right tartan. The old patronymic way of sorting would throw me into Clan Fergusson, but this doesn't seem to be particularly correct as my ancestors likely had no links to them, but maybe was just descended from one of the many village guys named Fergus. On the other hand, it's awkward to adopt a tartan not traditionally connected to one's surname. Then some people would say to just wear Black Watch, but it is a primarily military tartan, and I'm not at all a military personality. The regions of my genetic matches are suggestive, but not quite enough to peg down a district tartan, I think? Then there's always the tartan of my ancestors' home state in the US, but does anyone really wear a "state tartan?" The university where I received my Ph.D. also has a tartan, but would one really wear a kilt (even if the fabric were available) composed of it?
Anyway, I think you can see the thought I've put into the question. I'd appreciate some tartan therapy, please.... Any advice is most welcomed!
I do own and occasionally wear a Pennsylvania State tartan, having been born in PA.
Might I suggest contacting the Clan Fergusson Society? My connection to the Buchanans is tenuous, only that I have ancestors with the right sept surname from the general area. I have no way of knowing for sure if my ancestors really were part of the Clan, but the Clan Buchanan Society has been very welcoming regardless. Participation in the society has given me more of a feeling of connection than merely knowing that my grandfather's grandfather lived in the right area with one of the right names. Perhaps this might be the case for you as well.
edited to add: Buchanan is a Clan without a living chief (for now), while Fergusson has a chief. The societies may be different, but my experiences at Highland Games leads me to believe you'd be welcomed with open arms.
Last edited by Wareyin; 24th April 18 at 06:42 PM.
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24th April 18, 10:29 PM
#18
Originally Posted by Jumpmonkey
I imagine the setup costs will be huge. I used to run a printing press. Most of what you are paying for (on a typical job) is press setup, after that, the more copies your run the less you pay per sheet. Warping a loom is quite a process (I knew a girl who was quite the weaver, it was impressive to watch her work.) I'd be shocked beyond shocked if someone was out there weaving short-runs of tartan and selling it at or marginally above the standard cost. It just defies reason.
The set up cost need not be that high, all looms need to be set up irrespective of what tartan is being woven. There are of course economies of scale in weaving to stock but then then resulting material is a sunk cost for the weaver until it's sold. I once had an argument with a commercial weaving firm that wanted to impose a hefty surcharge for a full piece of a non-stock tartan when I wanted to buy the whole length. Funny old thing, they didn’t get the business. The potential cost comes in relation to profit foregone due to increased down time whilst a loom is being re-warped.
Don’t dismiss a special run out of hand without investigating it first. It costs nothing ti ask and you might be pleasantly surprised.
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24th April 18, 11:02 PM
#19
Originally Posted by figheadair
The set up cost need not be that high, all looms need to be set up irrespective of what tartan is being woven. There are of course economies of scale in weaving to stock but then then resulting material is a sunk cost for the weaver until it's sold. I once had an argument with a commercial weaving firm that wanted to impose a hefty surcharge for a full piece of a non-stock tartan when I wanted to buy the whole length. Funny old thing, they didn’t get the business. The potential cost comes in relation to profit foregone due to increased down time whilst a loom is being re-warped.
Don’t dismiss a special run out of hand without investigating it first. It costs nothing ti ask and you might be pleasantly surprised.
I completely agree with Peter on this. When I first started looking into getting a special run of a tartan that I wanted I thought it would be very expensive to do it and I was a but nervous. The reality is that you have much more control over a special weave and you can ensure that particular details that you want will be present in your weave ie. herringbone selvedge. It might take some time to come around to the idea of getting yards of cloth custom made for you but you will be happier with the finished product.
Best,
Adam
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25th April 18, 07:40 PM
#20
A great thread - THANKS FOR THE DISCUSSION
I will say I have somewhat similar questions and this has been a great read. I may post my inquiry, having a lengthy genealogy - but for now, truly am enjoying the discussion and just wanted to say THANK YOU!
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