An Argyll Is Not Called an Argyll in Scotland?

[KiltedSergeant]

Recently, on the Traditional Kilters Facebook page, a Scottish gentleman posted a photo of himself looking smart in his kilt, jacket, and tie. The post indicated that he was in Argyll. I made a comment something to the effect of him wearing his Argyll in Argyll, and he responded with a "?". I explained that I meant he was wearing an Argyll jacket in Argyll. His response was that it's not actually called an Argyll, and that is a name invented by manufacturers and exporters. He went on to say this about Scottish highland attire vendors:

" But we never got our clothes from those sources. In a Highland community it would be a local tailor who made jackets and kilts (as is the case with the clothing in my photo), not "Scottish attire vendor catalogs". I've had a similar discussion with another American-based site in regard to bagpipes. I knew many of the bagpipe makers in Scotland personally and they told me about the way they had to use a different set of terminology for American customers. There has been something of a neo-Scottish cult in the USA for decades and exporters from Scotland (who were rarely Scottish themselves) responded to this by providing American customers with goods and catalogues adjusted to their taste and terminology. The early 20th century catalogues of "Highland Dress" were made for urban customers who wanted to dress up like Highlanders for special occasions. People who actually lived in the Highlands would use a local source and didn't use the same terminology as these catalogues."

So, how much of the terminology that we use here on X-Marks the Scot is made up by vendors and exporters? Are there some words or names we should consider changing?

The April 3rd post can be found here, should you be interested: https://www.facebook.com/groups/908883275930253/

I did get the impression from his comments, and a bit of reading between the lines that he has a distaste for Americans playing Scottish dress-up- my words, not his, but that's the feeling I got.

[tokareva]

This is very interesting, on a side note I wish you would go back and find out exactly what his opinion is of Americans wearing the kilt, and his opinion of the Welsh, Canadians and Irish wearing the kilt also.

[FossilHunter]

I’m almost certain that Jock Scot refers to the style as argyle. Could be that the gentleman in the OP is simply extrapolating his personal experience/feelings onto the whole of the highlands.

[Hirsty]

I have always referred to such a jacket as an Argyll. When I got my Argyll jacket on my 18th birthday, that is how we referred to it. If it is a modern name for it, it has become common parlance and would not confuse anyone who hears the name.

[FossilHunter]

I have always referred to such a jacket as an Argyll. When I got my Argyll jacket on my 18th birthday, that is how we referred to it. If it is a modern name for it, it has become common parlance and would not confuse anyone who hears the name.

Well there it is.

[John_Carrick]

The term "Argyll" jacket seems well established in kilt businesses in Scotland as a distinct style of smart jacket, with elaborate cuffs etc, distinguishable from some of the more traditional and more modern styles and the Prince Charlie.
I would guess it has been losing market share to Crail and other modern cut jackets and checked tweed jackets although a standard for pipe bands.
Argylls seem to be available with or without waistcoats.
"Argyll" is a useful term and I have not encountered an alternative whilst in Scotland.

[Steve Ashton]

Today what we refer to as an argyle jacket is due to the cuff treatment.

The exact same jacket with the placket or single button on a closed cuff would go by other names.




And yes, this is a fairly new idea of a standard jacket cut to a standard pattern. In the days of small independent tailor shops, each one would have had their own style each with their own name.

Today there are only thee or four jacket makers. The one I deal with make the same jacket and distribute them under a variety of labels.

[Jock Scot]

I’m almost certain that Jock Scot refers to the style as argyle. Could be that the gentleman in the OP is simply extrapolating his personal experience/feelings onto the whole of the highlands.

Well, yes I do, but I do it for simplicity on this website because it's the modern(the last 30 years or so)thing and it's what you chaps new to kilt wearing understand.

As Steve has explained, until recent times kilt jackets were made by individual tailors who have very firm ideas on what THEIR kilt jacket looked like and what it was called. I still see it on occasion even now and even now as an example, one shop will call a fore and aft hat a deer stalker and it will be vice versa in another shop! I can't say that I have noticed that sort of situation with kilt jackets recently though.

A wee story. In my youth I asked the local tailor to make me a kilt jacket and then a whole list of requirements for length, cuffs, buttons, epaulettes, and so on. After I had finished the tailor quietly suggested that I had better find another tailor as HIS kilt jackets were not made that way! In those days there were no argyll, crail, etc., kilt jackets. There were though, Kilt jackets made by MacClennans, Haggarts, Chisholms etc., etc. and with an experienced eye one could tell who made a particular jacket. So, if you saw a style of jacket that you liked then if you didn't know who made it you found out and then went to that particular tailor to make your kilt jacket, suit, sports coat, shooting suit.

Even to this day I will visit different tailors to make specific items of clothing for specific purposes.

[LKM]

In those days there were no argyll, crail, etc., kilt jackets. There were though, Kilt jackets made by MacClennans, Haggarts, Chisholms etc., etc. and with an experienced eye one could tell who made a particular jacket. So, if you saw a style of jacket that you liked then if you didn't know who made it you found out and then went to that particular tailor to make your kilt jacket, suit, sports coat, shooting suit.

This is how all clothing once was. Some clothing brands are named after the tailor who started them, such as how Levi's was started by and first made by Levi Strauss. Although it is uncommon these days there are still times that someone will ask "Who's your tailor?" and not "What brand?" I'm not that old and I still remember when people would ask about the tailor more often.

[Jock Scot]

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I did get the impression from his comments, and a bit of reading between the lines that he has a distaste for Americans playing Scottish dress-up- my words, not his, but that's the feeling I got.

How perceptive of you. I have no idea who the author is who actually gave you that impression(I don't do face book), but the point of view is not uncommon in Scotland.

If nothing else you will find------- you may have even noticed-------- at least the slant on kilt attire and how and when to wear it on this website differs and on occasion, differs quite markedly between one side of the Atlantic and the other. Let me be quite clear not all Scots think as the chap who gave you the impression that you have gained.

However, can I suggest that you read three threads of mine that do illustrate well, what SOME Scots think about kilt attire and how to wear it. Whilst some here have found the threads a tad difficult to swallow, it is as well that you are aware of the difference of opinion so that you are hopefully not too shocked, or puzzled, by a different train of thought, should you come across it again. If you go to the search section on this website and look for "Food For Thought","Food For Thought Two(F4T2)" and "Two Telling Comments" all with me as the OP, you may find them illuminating even if you don't agree with them!