Personal flair

[Nathan]

Thinking about my comment above and bearing in mind Nomads pertinent observations earlier in this thread. Do we think that the Duke could improve the look of his attire in any way, to achieve what he needs to portray?

Black well polished shoes---check, Kilt hose of interesting colours without being loud and perfect height---- check. Plain flashes at a perfect length----check. Tartan kilt worn well----check. Sporran (I am not keen on the style) but a sound choice---check. Modest kilt pin worn at a slightly old fashioned height, but perfectly correct----check. The usual pale blue shirt, fine for any day occasion and slightly smarter than a tattersall shirt might be, so fine for every and any day occasion that he is likely to meet----check. A regimental tie, often The Gordon Highlanders, but he has many to choose from---check. Dark tweed(?) argyll day kilt jacket and waistcoat, plain and without cuffs and epaulets, so ageless and will blend in with any day event---check. Pocket watch---check. No bonnet, so no affectation there.....check. Often a cromach which is very helpful with a 70 year old back when stood about all day..... check.

Actually, I don't think he needs to change a thing and his muted but elegant kilt attire, with the tartan of the kilt taking centre stage in the outfit as a whole, is a perfectly thought out and modest but effective example of what he needs whilst carrying out civilian public duties during the day anywhere in the Highlands of Scotland.

I think Rothsay looks marvellous in his kilt attire. In fact, I think he may dress better than anyone I've seen photographed kilted. I was just pointing out that his outfits are typically wonderfully colour coordinated and you often mention that matching isn't a desirable goal in the Highland fashion sense. I point to the way Rothsay's hose coordinate with his tartan in one pic and the way the window pane in his tweed compliments the tartan in his other. He already had two very nice tweeds, but it seems he had another jacket made just to go with his new kilt.

[jumary]

Thinking about my comment above and bearing in mind Nomads pertinent observations earlier in this thread. Do we think that the Duke could improve the look of his attire in any way, to achieve what he needs to portray?

Black well polished shoes---check, Kilt hose of interesting colours without being loud and perfect height---- check. Plain flashes at a perfect length----check. Tartan kilt worn well----check. Sporran (I am not keen on the style) but a sound choice---check. Modest kilt pin worn at a slightly old fashioned height, but perfectly correct----check. The usual pale blue shirt, fine for any day occasion and slightly smarter than a tattersall shirt might be, so fine for every and any day occasion that he is likely to meet----check. A regimental tie, often The Gordon Highlanders, but he has many to choose from---check. Dark tweed(?) argyll day kilt jacket and waistcoat, plain and without cuffs and epaulets, so ageless and will blend in with any day event---check. Pocket watch---check. No bonnet, so no affectation there.....check. Often a cromach which is very helpful with a 70 year old back when stood about all day..... check.
.

I'm going to save this post as a concise checklist of what to wear and how to wear my kilt attire. Thank you sir!

[Jock Scot]

I'm going to save this post as a concise checklist of what to wear and how to wear my kilt attire. Thank you sir!

My pleasure. We just need to remember that us lesser mortals perhaps have a tad more leeway with slightly less formal day attire than perhaps the Duke has whilst on Official Business. Nathan has provided some excellent "country tweed" examples that the Duke also wears which can be used as first rate examples too. Matching and co-ordinationg colours are an option for us, but in the Highlands few bother about it. If we take my tartan(MacLeod of Harris) as an example, it is made up of five colours, blue, green,red,yellow and black so its nearly impossible not to match/co-ordinate a colour with other bits of our attire, the trick is not put any conscious effort into our other attire(hose/shirt/tie/tweed) colours, so that if anything matches, it is more by accident rather than by design. Different shades of colours can also help reduce the matchy look too.

Additions that also could usefully be added to our repertoire would be the use of subtle patterned tattersall shirts and small check light blue gingham patterned shirts and I think its been demonstrated well by Nathans pictures that "regimental/club/college/university/ old school style" ties can be used to advantage as well. A word of warning though, it is best not to wear ties of his style if you are not entitled to wear them, particularly in the UK. However, many have found that the Army Benevolent Fund tie(ABF) and Help For Heroes(H4H) tie can be successfully and legitimately worn by anyone whilst wearing the kilt.

[neloon]

The Duke is well dressed even when relaxing. No comment about the Princes!
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/7e...c8d29e02a7.jpg
But then, like Jock and I and others, he grew up wearing the kilt. Health and safety at the sawmill??
Notice that Princess Anne's kilt fastens to the left as was the fashion for girls/women in those days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCUbMQ1Y4Os

Alan

[FossilHunter]

I am also curious to hear Jock's take on this photo here:


source: express.co.uk

He was hosting a dinner for fashion leaders to promote wool. But what I see in the photos is that while the guests are wearing black tie, he is wearing what Jock has described as pretty formal clothing with diced hose, buckle brogues, a velvet doublet, and a metal cantled sporran.


source: express.co.uk

Is he not "over egging the cake?" I think he looks great but some of the advice we get here can seem a little contradictory to me as xmarkers attending tartan balls and other events are often advised to tone things down. The cutoff just isn't clear to me at all (not black vs white tie as that would be on the invitation).

Here is a photo of Lord MacDonald of Macdonald with guests at a dinner party:

source: Euphoria Photography

Now the guests in Saxon dress are wearing white tie but Lord MacDonald and most of his kilted guests are wearing outfits pretty similar to what Prince Charles was wearing to a black tie event (black tie based on the guests' Saxon dress). He has a doublet and dirk belt and some of the kilted guests have velvet jackets, tartan vests, buckled shoes, and argyle hose. There is one fellow in a black argyle and solid hose.

This was a pre-ball dinner party according to the source.

So does Prince Charles over dress? Or are royals expected to dress more royally?

Nathan has some wonderful photos of himself in his Balmoral doublet with fancy hose and buckle brogues. He wouldn't look out of place in either of these events based on the kilt wearer's dress in them.

[Jock Scot]

I am also curious to hear Jock's take on this photo here:


source: express.co.uk

He was hosting a dinner for fashion leaders to promote wool. But what I see in the photos is that while the guests are wearing black tie, he is wearing what Jock has described as pretty formal clothing with diced hose, buckle brogues, a velvet doublet, and a metal cantled sporran.


source: express.co.uk

Is he not "over egging the cake?" I think he looks great but some of the advice we get here can seem a little contradictory to me as xmarkers attending tartan balls and other events are often advised to tone things down. The cutoff just isn't clear to me at all (not black vs white tie as that would be on the invitation).

Here is a photo of Lord MacDonald of Macdonald with guests at a dinner party:

source: Euphoria Photography

Now the guests in Saxon dress are wearing white tie but Lord MacDonald and most of his kilted guests are wearing outfits pretty similar to what Prince Charles was wearing to a black tie event (black tie based on the guests' Saxon dress). He has a doublet and dirk belt and some of the kilted guests have velvet jackets, tartan vests, buckled shoes, and argyle hose. There is one fellow in a black argyle and solid hose.

This was a pre-ball dinner party according to the source.

So does Prince Charles over dress? Or are royals expected to dress more royally?

Nathan has some wonderful photos of himself in his Balmoral doublet with fancy hose and buckle brogues. He wouldn't look out of place in either of these events based on the kilt wearer's dress in them.

I wondered when these pictures were going to turn up!

The Prince Charles pictures illustrate well, how saxon black tie attire.....dinner suits(tux) covers everything up to, but not including white tie events and kilt attire has several levels of black tie attire, including white tie equivalent. Now Prince Charles is dressed in a higher end black tie(dinner suit equivalent) kilt attire and considering that the event is "putting their best foot forward" for a good cause then Prince Charles is dressing to best effect and is perfectly acceptable.

The bottom picture is an example of a scarce high end black tie kilt event(white tie equivalent), in fact two gentlemen in the last picture, back right, are wearing saxon white tie attire, so the kilt attire is perfectly acceptable. In fact there is a chap not attired properly on the left of the picture. His attire is perhaps the best he could do in the circumstances, but his attire is a perfect example of what to wear to a normal bog standard black tie event.

Those that use these pictures as examples of how to dress formally to some minor burns do at the local hotel would most certainly be over-egging the cake! Unless you use the chap on the left of the last picture as your perfect example.

This is exactly why not understanding the full context of a picture is so dangerous.

[Manu]

It seems to me that highland kilted attire is no different than any other fashion style in the sense that you will find those who are staunch traditionalists and tend to dress extremely conservative so as to not stand out and for who personal flare is adding a small accessory to their outfit, and then you have those who because of their personality, can be a bit more eccentric with their attire because they have a wider range of personal flare to add to their outfit, even if they are following proper dress etiquette, their outfits will stand out over the crowd. Is it tasteless? No. Is it disrespectful? No. It's simply different. While I base my kilted attire on what is considered traditionalist, I, like many others, will add some personal flare to the outfit that might make a more conservative kilt wearer think im eccentric. For example, I like to wear top-diced hose. A more conservative kilt wearer might think those are over the top, but just because he wouldn't be caught dead wearing them does not mean my attire is wrong or inappropriate with my day attire. In short, I don't dress conservatively in Saxon attire, so why would I in kilted attire? I don't think traditional is synonymous of conservative, and the difference should be made. There is a range of eccentricity within the traditional spectrum.

[FossilHunter]

I wondered when these pictures were going to turn up!

The Prince Charles pictures illustrate well, how saxon black tie attire.....dinner suits(tux) covers everything up to, but not including white tie events and kilt attire has several levels of black tie attire, including white tie equivalent. Now Prince Charles is dressed in a higher end black tie(dinner suit equivalent) kilt attire and considering that the event is "putting their best foot forward" for a good cause then Prince Charles is dressing to best effect and is perfectly acceptable.

The bottom picture is an example of a scarce high end black tie kilt event(white tie equivalent), in fact two gentlemen in the last picture, back right, are wearing saxon white tie attire, so the kilt attire is perfectly acceptable. In fact there is a chap not attired properly on the left of the picture. His attire is perhaps the best he could do in the circumstances, but his attire is a perfect example of what to wear to a normal bog standard black tie event.

Those that use these pictures as examples of how to dress formally to some minor burns do at the local hotel would most certainly be over-egging the cake! Unless you use the chap on the left of the last picture as your perfect example.

This is exactly why not understanding the full context of a picture is so dangerous.

I did make a point of stating what the event was that Prince Charles was dressed for. I just have no idea how formal a dinner for the fashion industry would need to be. I mostly selected the photos that I did because they had men in Saxon dress, which helps establish the events as white or black tie.

Anyhow, I'm still trying to figure out the black tie formality scale. A fashion industry dinner would be on the hgih end of the formality scale and a Burns dinner at a hotel would be on the low end. But what about everything in between?

Here is a pricture of Lord MacDonald in the USA, dressed in his doublet and argyle hose (with polished oxfords):


soure: The Coleman Armorial

According to the description it was taken at the 2014 Clan Donald USA annual general meeting in Flagstaff, Arizona. I believe that the general meetings of CDUSA have a "Tartan Ball" where people dress up formally (I do not know the actual dress code).

Now it's hard for me to tell for sure but this outfit looks awfully like the one he is wearing in his white-tie dinner photo I posted a few posts back. Certainly it is the same belt, doublet, and kilt, though the sporran, shoes, and hose are obscured in the other photo.

Would you consider him over dressed or just appropriately dressed? What would you expect the formality to be for a Tartan Ball at a hotel? The woman (Diane Carey-Schmitz, who was elected High Commissioner that year) is wearing a cocktail dress so I assume that black tie was the standard level of dress.

[Jock Scot]

Ahhhh, you ask the million pound question! Not easy to answer without knowing the event requirements and experience! Even then its easy to get it wrong!

When an invitation arrives, you use the local grapevine and if the event is an annual one then there is usually someone about that knows the form and can give the local lowdown. Failing that you contact your hosts for confirmation of attire requirements, ----------aaaaaannnnndddddd here comes a potential problem! If your host knows exactly what dress is required then all is well, if your host does not understand kilt black tie requirements then you may--- probably will---- have a problem! Those dressed in dinner suits will be fine, those dressed in formal kilt attire then the problem has only just begun!

As a rough guide when in doubt dress like that chap on the left of that last picture that I commented on and 90 times out of a hundred you won't be far out. That means that those who overdress will be wrong 90 times out of a hundred!

If you can trust your host or local knowledge then follow the advice to the letter. Except when your "friends" drop you in it by deliberately giving you false information! It happened to me! The hosts were in on the joke, so after a huge amount of laughter at my expense, I had a whale of a time, dressed in the wrong attire!

Anyway, I always advise underdressing rather than overdressing and in my experience its somewhere near right most of the time. High end black tie events are not that common, however if you know that the do is at Buckingham Palace for example then it does give you a clue that something special might happen. On the other hand, a Burns supper in the local pub is hardly likely to be pushing the boat out!

[FossilHunter]

Ahhhh, you ask the million pound question! Not easy to answer without knowing the event requirements and experience! Even then its easy to get it wrong!

When an invitation arrives, you use the local grapevine and if the event is an annual one then there is usually someone about that knows the form and can give the local lowdown. Failing that you contact your hosts for confirmation of attire requirements, ----------aaaaaannnnndddddd here comes a potential problem! If your host knows exactly what dress is required then all is well, if your host does not understand kilt black tie requirements then you may--- probably will---- have a problem! Those dressed in dinner suits will be fine, those dressed in formal kilt attire then the problem has only just begun!

As a rough guide when in doubt dress like that chap on the left of that last picture that I commented on and 90 times out of a hundred you won't be far out. That means that those who overdress will be wrong 90 times out of a hundred!

If you can trust your host or local knowledge then follow the advice to the letter. Except when your "friends" drop you in it by deliberately giving you false information! It happened to me! The hosts were in on the joke, so after a huge amount of laughter at my expense, I had a whale of a time, dressed in the wrong attire!

Anyway, I always advise underdressing rather than overdressing and in my experience its somewhere near right most of the time. High end black tie events are not that common, however if you know that the do is at Buckingham Palace for example then it does give you a clue that something special might happen. On the other hand, a Burns supper in the local pub is hardly likely to be pushing the boat out!

Hypothetically, what would you wear to the CDUSA banquet/ball? Based on the photo of Lord MacDonald at the one in 2014. What would you wear to the dinner photo of Lord MacDonald with the kilted and white tie guests?

In part I'm wondering what the best outfit would be for all black tie occasions? Lord MacDonald seems to like his black balmoral doublet with the argyle hose for a wide range of formal events.