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  1. #11
    Join Date
    6th November 08
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    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    The eagle may appear similar to American depictions of the same era perhaps, but the pattern on the shield makes me think that's about where it ends! The pattern gives the impression of a more European flavour than American. As well were it an American eagle I'd expect it to be clutching a scroll or a sheaf of arrows, not alit on the shield border. I think this is in all likelihood a Scottish made sporran that was made for a Scottish client, can't really see anything to make me think otherwise.
    There was a lot of unassayed sterling silver that was produced in Victorian/Edwardian Scotland so silver without hallmarks is not uncommon. That being said, any jeweller or reputable dealer is capable of doing an acid test to verify silver content.
    His prices are a bit unrealistic, many times what I think may be reasonable.
    Last edited by MacCathmhaoil; 23rd June 18 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Spelling
    Being male is a matter of birth,
    Being a man is a matter of maturity,
    Being a gentleman is a matter of choice!

  2. #12
    Join Date
    19th October 09
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    South Queensferry, Scotland
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    Eagle

    The eagle could well be associated with the Agnew family/clan as it is their badge.
    It's coming yet for a' that,
    That Man to Man, the world o'er,
    Shall brothers be for a' that. - RB

  3. The Following User Says 'Aye' to MacRobert's Reply For This Useful Post:


  4. #13
    Join Date
    12th June 17
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    WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRobert's Reply View Post
    The eagle could well be associated with the Agnew family/clan as it is their badge.

    That's a really good note. It's an amazing Sporan and that cantle I think deserves a come back edition!

  5. #14
    Join Date
    8th September 16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    The detail in the metalwork is amazing. But that eagle doesn't look American to me at all. It reminds me more of what you'd see in Germany or Austria, although it's a similar motif all over Europe.

    It would be a huge risk to pay this much for it without seeing the hallmark. But given that laws in the UK are much more strict about using the word "silver", I'm going to assume that it is provably sterling silver, and that one just needs to ask the seller for the proof.

    If I were able to afford really nice collectible sporrans, this one would be hot on my list!
    This is NOT a US Eagle, for several reasons. First the US Eagle is most of all Federal applications is displayed with the US Shield, which is the Treasury Shield. Also the US Eagle on military and other Federal applications is displayed with stars above the head with beams of light. The neck of the eagle on the sporran is more German or Austrian. The belt buckle displayed was a pattern form 1852 that was used through 1900. It came in two patterns, one for Non-Commissioned Officers and one for Officers, the Officer had a Silver wreath below the buckle. This was buckle was used mainly in the US Civil War through the Indian War and was gradually retired before the WWI. Another reason, Congress passed measure the motto "E Pluribus Unum" "From many one", to be used with Eagle either as banner or stream ribbon. Also the direction of the head, most times the direction facing left is associated with military, and right would be civilian department, but this does not hold true all the time, just works out that way. When US Coast Guard was part of the Treasury before WWII, the crows faced to the right or toward the front, in the US Navy crows faced to the back or left, I am talking about the Petty Officer crows worn on uniforms. Also the US Eagle is always depicted with talon grasping arrows (war) on left and talon grasping olive branches (peace) on right. However, you will see examples of the arrows and olive branches reversed, no reason, just the way it was approved.

    By 1852 the Colonial Eagle that was on the wood carving, that was used mainly by the US Navy with the longer neck was replaced by the Navy on or about 1849. The Federal Eagle came is several configurations, but MOST had the US Shield as previous stated.

    After examining the Ebay Sporan cantle, this is NOT a US Eagle. Similar but no cigar on this one.

    Here are some examples of the US Eagle during varies stages of U.S. History

    Civil War..



    Here is example of very early eagle button for a militia uniform, no shield but stars, and if you look on the talon, grasping US Flag. Very rare button.



    Presidential Seal on or about late 1800's around 1890:



    Revolutionary War and post, up to War of 1812:



    US Army WWI to now:



    Example of US Eagle with no shield, used on US Army Breast Plats for Cartridge Box, between 1849 through Civil War.



    Finally, the US Navy and Marine Corp around 1915 changed its logos and did not use shields, because the US Coast Guard was formed with the US Lighthouse Service, US Lifesaving Service, Revenue Marines (cutter service) and few other groups to form the present US Coast Guard, and they used the US Shield on their logo. Now this does not mean you will not see the US Shield on the Eagle with some Navy and Marine Eagle logos, but the Official Navy and Marine logos use the Anchor.

    Here is PRE 19th Century NAVY



    POST:

    OFFICIAL US NAVY CREST



    US Coast Guard, Official Crest, no Eagle, but shield



    US Coast Guard Official FLAG uses the Eagle and Crest



    US NAVY WITH SHIELD


    US Marines:


    So, what you notice is form the most part the image of the US Eagle is much different, especially in the neck of the Eagle. Took the time to do this, even though its a little overkill, to show our friends on the other side of the pond the US Eagle and its evolution from Revolutionary to now. Hope you enjoy, there is NO HARD FAST RULES, but the American Eagle is much different than the European cousins. CHEERS.
    Last edited by CollinMacD; 16th July 18 at 05:38 AM.
    Allan Collin MacDonald III
    Grandfather - Clan Donald, MacDonald (Clanranald) /MacBride, Antigonish, NS, 1791
    Grandmother - Clan Chisholm of Strathglass, West River, Antigonish, 1803
    Scottish Roots: Knoidart, Inverness, Scotland, then to Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada.

  6. #15
    Join Date
    22nd July 08
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
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    as a thought...
    cantle's French Imperial eagle and ermine pattern resemble one of clan Kennedy coat of arms...
    just look there https://www.scotclans.com/scottish-c...-coat-of-arms/



    Lt. Col. Alexander John Clark KENNEDY OF KNOCKGRAY
    ..... and for an honourable augmentation upon a chief Ermine the representation of a French eagle and flag with the inscription ‘L’Empereur Napoleon du 105me Regiment’ thereon and a sword disposed saltire-ways (being commemorative of the capture of the eagle at Waterloo by the petitioner’s ancestor Lt. Col. Alexander Kennedy Clark Kennedy and being that of the 105th Regiment of French infantry when in command of and leading the centre squadron of the first or Royal Dragoons at that battle).

    why not?

  7. #16
    Join Date
    13th September 10
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    Sacramento, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Unfortunately the seller is short on both photos and description.



    https://www.ebay.com/itm/REMARKABLE-...EAAOSw9LlaiG8V
    I'm not sure if anyone noticed that if one scrolls down to "Item description" then click on the box "See full item description" there are 9 photos, most of them close-ups, and a view of the reverse of the sporran.

  8. #17
    Join Date
    11th July 05
    Location
    Alexandria, VA (USA)
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    Quote Originally Posted by CollinMacD View Post
    This is NOT a US Eagle, for several reasons. First the US Eagle is most of all Federal applications is displayed with the US Shield, which is the Treasury Shield. Also the US Eagle on military and other Federal applications is displayed with stars above the head with beams of light. The neck of the eagle on the sporran is more German or Austrian. The belt buckle displayed was a pattern form 1852 that was used through 1900. It came in two patterns, one for Non-Commissioned Officers and one for Officers, the Officer had a Silver wreath below the buckle. This was buckle was used mainly in the US Civil War through the Indian War and was gradually retired before the WWI. Another reason, Congress passed measure the motto "E Pluribus Unum" "From many one", to be used with Eagle either as banner or stream ribbon. Also the direction of the head, most times the direction facing left is associated with military, and right would be civilian department, but this does not hold true all the time, just works out that way. When US Coast Guard was part of the Treasury before WWII, the crows faced to the right or toward the front, in the US Navy crows faced to the back or left, I am talking about the Petty Officer crows worn on uniforms. Also the US Eagle is always depicted with talon grasping arrows (war) on left and talon grasping olive branches (peace) on right. However, you will see examples of the arrows and olive branches reversed, no reason, just the way it was approved.

    By 1852 the Colonial Eagle that was on the wood carving, that was used mainly by the US Navy with the longer neck was replaced by the Navy on or about 1849. The Federal Eagle came is several configurations, but MOST had the US Shield as previous stated.

    After examining the Ebay Sporan cantle, this is NOT a US Eagle. Similar but no cigar on this one.

    Here are some examples of the US Eagle during varies stages of U.S. History

    Civil War..



    Here is example of very early eagle button for a militia uniform, no shield but stars, and if you look on the talon, grasping US Flag. Very rare button.



    Presidential Seal on or about late 1800's around 1890:



    Revolutionary War and post, up to War of 1812:



    US Army WWI to now:



    Example of US Eagle with no shield, used on US Army Breast Plats for Cartridge Box, between 1849 through Civil War.



    Finally, the US Navy and Marine Corp around 1915 changed its logos and did not use shields, because the US Coast Guard was formed with the US Lighthouse Service, US Lifesaving Service, Revenue Marines (cutter service) and few other groups to form the present US Coast Guard, and they used the US Shield on their logo. Now this does not mean you will not see the US Shield on the Eagle with some Navy and Marine Eagle logos, but the Official Navy and Marine logos use the Anchor.

    Here is PRE 19th Century NAVY



    POST:

    OFFICIAL US NAVY CREST



    US Coast Guard, Official Crest, no Eagle, but shield



    US Coast Guard Official FLAG uses the Eagle and Crest



    US NAVY WITH SHIELD


    US Marines:


    So, what you notice is form the most part the image of the US Eagle is much different, especially in the neck of the Eagle. Took the time to do this, even though its a little overkill, to show our friends on the other side of the pond the US Eagle and its evolution from Revolutionary to now. Hope you enjoy, there is NO HARD FAST RULES, but the American Eagle is much different than the European cousins. CHEERS.
    Colin - With regard to the U.S. Marine Corps' use of the stylized crested eagle, it was the form used in various 19th century Marine Corps' shako plates and the early editions of the "Eagle, Globe and Anchor" device (authorized in 1868) and was thought by some to depict one of the species of sea eagles. During the early 20th century, the eagle's "crest" gradually faded away. In 1955, the Marine Corps "Eagle, Globe and Anchor" emblem that is included in the illustrated Seal was authorized as the Corps' official device, and the American Bald Eagle was specified as the eagle on the device. And thus has it been down to the present. The only exception to that is that the eagle depicted on the Marine Corps' button is still of the crested variety. It should be noted that the Corps' button has not been altered since it was adopted in the early 1820's, except that during the 19th century the six-pointed star was replaced by the five-pointed star. It is the oldest insignia in contiuous use in the U.S. Armed Forces. Trivia to the max! Semper Fi!
    Last edited by Orvis; 6th August 18 at 08:44 AM.

  9. #18
    Join Date
    8th September 16
    Location
    Virginia
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    He Orvis,

    Hope to see you at the Scottish games this year, not going Jacobite this year, my cousin, yeah another MacDonald, will be coming down from Boston to be with us. So glad you piped in, takes a Marine to finish, I can talk about USCG, and some Navy, but Marines know their history as well or even better then most others... FYI, when I was doing the Civil War thing, I bought an authentic US Marine Eagle SHAKO plate and Breast Plate :M: (square brass for crossed white belts worn by Marines in 1861. from Frank Burgess of Connecticut. Sold it to a Marine Colonel who was looking for a set. Very familiar with the Marine Uniform of the Civil War, and the Confederate Marines too.

    THANKS... CHEERS...
    Last edited by CollinMacD; 6th August 18 at 09:29 AM.
    Allan Collin MacDonald III
    Grandfather - Clan Donald, MacDonald (Clanranald) /MacBride, Antigonish, NS, 1791
    Grandmother - Clan Chisholm of Strathglass, West River, Antigonish, 1803
    Scottish Roots: Knoidart, Inverness, Scotland, then to Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada.

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