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  1. #51
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    Not sure that peer-reviewed articles end the debate about Q- versus P-.
    Dr. Ewan Campbell suggested that Q-Celts were in Scotland prior to any Irish in-migration and that some Picts may have spoken Q-Celtic
    https://www.electricscotland.com/his...scotsirish.htm
    (originally published in Antiquity 75)
    Bridget Brennan, on the other hand, disputes his analysis
    http://www.academia.edu/7174193/A_cr...e_Scots_Irish_

    Alan

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by neloon View Post
    Not sure that peer-reviewed articles end the debate about Q- versus P-.
    Dr. Ewan Campbell suggested that Q-Celts were in Scotland prior to any Irish in-migration and that some Picts may have spoken Q-Celtic
    https://www.electricscotland.com/his...scotsirish.htm
    (originally published in Antiquity 75)
    Bridget Brennan, on the other hand, disputes his analysis
    http://www.academia.edu/7174193/A_cr...e_Scots_Irish_

    Alan
    Oh, it doesn’t end the debate, it just raises it considerably.
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster, lover of God, people (most of them!) dogs, joy, humour & clarity. Theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, dreamer, traditionalist, bon-vivant, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Sinclair.

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickHughes123 View Post
    Okay, this is what I'm talking about, Gaelic came to Scotland from Ireland. It then spread to Pictland where as well as replacing the Pictish language, Gaelicized many Pictish names. Same with the Cumbric people. As Alba grew, Gaelic spread. Even before the Norse Gael culture, there were pure Gaels that settled in the South-West about the 6th Century. I've even heard that Dalriada originally existed from Northern Ireland across to South-West Scotland. I know it was the Western Isles, but I've heard that the South-West was also a part of Dalriada.

    I may have misrepresented myself, what I meant was, Gaelic shouldn't be treated as a regional language of the Highlands when in fact, long ago in Scotland's history, it was spoken over most of Scotland. It may not be relevant to the Lowlands today, but it was and is historically speaking.

    Would Southern Gaelic have been different from Highland Gaelic? Yes. Was Galwegian Gaelic more Norse than the Gaelic of the Highlands? Yes. If it had survived, would Galwegian Gaelic be a different language? Possibly. But the point is, all of these possible historical dialects were all Gaelic ones.

    No, Gaelic is not the only true language of Scotland. Scots is another true language and the only other as Gaelic and Scots are the only ones that have survived into the 21st Century.
    Dalriada may have even stretched as far as the Isle of Man. But that's not what is commonly considered to be part of Dalriada and the Isle of Man had a large number of influxes within it.

    However I'd point out one thing, there's a 9th Century Pictish Cross found at the Monastic Site at Maughold in the Isle of Man. Ross Trench Jellico discusses the large amount of Pictish motifs appearing in ecclesiastical stone carvings on the Isle of Man, and the very outstanding Cross slab of St Paul and St Anthony, which is pretty much identical except for a difference in layout (and that layout difference does not impact on the overall "hierarchy" of the slabs considered by him to two in Eastern Scotland. At one point certainly there were strong links to the Priory of Whithorn. I was fortunate enough to be working at the Manx Museum at a point at which he was extensively photographing the Pictish Stone kept at the Manx Museum (along with the Calf of Mann Crucifiction which is definitely Byzantine influenced), and my first comment was to him that I thought it was Pictish and he confirmed it and proceeded to disemminated his large body of knowledge built up by studying the crosses both on the Isle of Man and in Scotland. Off the back of that I read his thesis....

    So if Pictish Culture is 'ended' by the creation of the Kingdom of Alba then why is it springing up on the Isle of Man at a later date (bearing in mind that the Island faced a number of outside influences throughout that period of History, including a P Celtic one, Gaelic Influxes -possibly Dalriada, Norse Gaelic - The Kingdom of the Isles, Northumbrian, Scottish, and then English based Lordships)? So if those Gaelic settlers in Galloway had 'ended' the Pictish culture there then how is it able to travel into the Island via ecclesiastical links? As I've said before there's strong evidence that the Gaelic Speakers who were in the Kingdom of Galloway were not true Irish or Scottish Gaelic speakers coming from the Kingdom of Alba, but a little Enclave formed by migrants from the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles. And as I've pointed out the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles was receptive enough to Pictish Culture that you are able to find Pictish Crosses and motifs more commonly found in North Eastern Scotland (let's not also get into the Conversation about Clackmannanshire and Mannanin Mclear)……

    At the end of the 11th Century with the exception of Galloway (whose origins I have already talked about) the South Eastern Part of Scotland was dominated by the Kingdom of Northumbria. The South Western part was strongly under the control of the Strathclyde British who were P Celt, not Gaelic. And we know that the Kingdom of Northumbria must have been able to punch up as far as Montrose swallowing up Fife on the way because one of the stones near Aberlemno commemorated a battle fought between the Picts and the Northumbrians. Also in a museum in the area there was an Anglo Saxon Harness Fragment found.... If we consider that Dundee is often interpreted as a Gaelic name, but looking at it another way Dun is also a Saxon word for Hill, Dee is also found in Wales where it means the River of the Goddess or the Holy River....

    Finally one other point to consider. When areas get taken over by other linguistic groups pushing in from outside what tends to happen is that there's not a true 'extermination' of all the people, but that a ruling class tends to set itself up with its own linguistics but leaving the population to continue to use their own tongue except where it is important to communicate with them (and of course those who really want to get ahead in that society of the other linguistic group tend to become bilingual so they carve a niche for themselves communicating between the incomers and the subject population.). so what happens is that of course the landowners pick the place names for their land, impacting on placenames but that doesn't mean that the surrounding population are all speaking that language...…(we could observe this in areas of the British Empire in the past). So even placenames do not fully communicate the language that was spoken by all of the inhabitants, just the (or one of the) languages of the landowning classes who had their holdings documented...

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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post

    Perhaps this is the real reason why the Lowlands were more anglicised -gaelic was just a culture foisted upon them by invaders from Ireland so absorbing the later incoming cultures came just as easily?...
    The lowlands were easily accessible to development during the Middle Ages and that development was carried out by Europeans and English. Once the principal trade towns were English speaking then trade became an English speaking endeavour and Gaelic was pushed further back.

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damion View Post
    The lowlands were easily accessible to development during the Middle Ages and that development was carried out by Europeans and English. Once the principal trade towns were English speaking then trade became an English speaking endeavour and Gaelic was pushed further back.
    Yes, true. But most of what is now Scotland was once Gaelic-speaking. English only established itself later with David I, it's called the Davidian Revolution.

    The ancient Clan Wallace, Clan Bruce and Clan Murray. But please don't forget, the Grant and the Gordon.

  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damion View Post
    The lowlands were easily accessible to development during the Middle Ages and that development was carried out by Europeans and English. Once the principal trade towns were English speaking then trade became an English speaking endeavour and Gaelic was pushed further back.
    The Kingdom of Northumbria was battling the Kindom of the Picts as far up as Aberlemno. They had control of the Lowlands along with the P Celtic Strathclyde British. The Scots hadn't even arrived then...

    Your post illustrates exactly what I was saying about a nationalist agenda of Gaelic 'extremeism' to foster a bigger divide, covering over the truth of the matter, that a saxon tongue was in the Lowlands long before the middle ages, and that the Lowlands were originally P Celt speaking (& also coming under the Romano British fold).

    I acknowledge that trade with the outside world has a pivotal role in linguistics, but let's not pretend that Anglo Saxon tongues in Scotland started then...

  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickHughes123 View Post
    Yes, true. But most of what is now Scotland was once Gaelic-speaking. English only established itself later with David I, it's called the Davidian Revolution.
    But what you fail to acknowledge is that the country we now call Scotland has had a series of different linguistic influxes and that many of them predate an invasion from Ireland...so Gaelic is no more 'THE ANCESTORAL TONGUE' of the modern country than English is & definitely less so than P Celtic languages....

  10. #58
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    Allan Thomson

    Where are you getting all of this? This doesn't seem to be true history. Northumbria only ever stretched as far as the South-East of Scotland. Strathclyde, like Pictland, was absorbed directly by Alba.

    Alba took the South-East of Scotland from Northumbria. It has nothing to do with Gaelic extremism.
    Last edited by PatrickHughes123; 10th September 18 at 11:35 AM.

    The ancient Clan Wallace, Clan Bruce and Clan Murray. But please don't forget, the Grant and the Gordon.

  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickHughes123 View Post
    Allan Thomson

    Where are you getting all of this? This doesn't seem to be true history. Northumbria only ever stretched as far as the South-East of Scotland. Strathclyde, like Pictland, was absorbed directly by Alba.

    Alba took the South-East of Scotland from Northumbria. It has nothing to do with Gaelic extremism.
    Where am I getting this? Many books I've read & looking at history from a number of different perspectives. Places I've been, things I've seen, informed people I know.. A lifetime from an early age with the benefits of insights of archaeologists, historians and linguists..

    How about the Pictish stones at Aberlemno which commemorates a battle between the Scots & the Northumbrians (have you ever seen them because I have & I also have the advantage of input from experts on the stones who have studied them to a considerable level?) proving that Northumbria was able to hit as high up as Montrose. Also the Anglo Saxon Harness fragments found in the area.

    Looking at placenames and understanding how multiple interpretations can be put upon them.

    Where are you getting your idea that somehow Gaelic is the only language which is relevant to the history of the people of the modern country called Scotland? Apart from dubious websites?

    For some reason you've dismissed everything prior to 1200 because late in the 1100's Strathclyde still existed. Because it fits your agenda. My point is that there is strong evidence for Anglo Saxon tongues in the South of Scotland prior to the Kingdom of Albam you just don't want to acknowledge it.

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  13. #60
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    For a start Patrick familiarise yourself with the two suggested locations of the Battle of Dun Nechtain 20th May 685 where the Kingdom of Northumbria fought the Picts to reassert their domination over territories they previously had influence over. There are two suggested locations, one in Aberlemno, the other in Badenoch with the Aberlemno being the most likely, supported by the evidence depicted on the stone in the churchyard which depictions of the helmetted figure match helmets of the same period found in York. So what were you saying about the Kingdom of Northumbria only reaching as far as South East Scotland? They must have had to have control over Fife to get as far as Aberlemno. Similarly in the same part of Scotland fragments of a Saxon Harness were found (I've said this several times and for some reason it doesn't register with you)....

    Your problem is when you are looking at things from one perspective and only starting at a date which suits you, ignoring anything that went on before because it questions your idea that somehow Scotland is only a Gaelic country....
    Last edited by Allan Thomson; 10th September 18 at 03:18 PM.

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