The Ghillie Shirt

[Taskr]

I don't think the intent is to challenge Patrick on his choice. In his own way he commented on and asked opinions on the ghillie shirt, which if I'm paraphrasing correctly he considers a modern take on a romantic era. He likes it, he wears it, and was curious why more of us do not. He has certainly ignited a discussion!

Yeah, that wiki page is blandly void

[Baeau]

I like the way the word, traditional & traditionally, are used. Without any background, dates, et cetera.

[Elden]

I have heard that they are from the movies.that being said I have one in off white.

[Tobus]

I don't think the intent is to challenge Patrick on his choice. In his own way he commented on and asked opinions on the ghillie shirt, which if I'm paraphrasing correctly he considers a modern take on a romantic era. He likes it, he wears it, and was curious why more of us do not. He has certainly ignited a discussion!

I suppose I should chime in again and reiterate for the record that you're correct, it was not my intent to challenge him on his choice. If he likes it, more power to him. I only challenge his belief that this is a "genuine" piece of Highland attire. And I politely insist that it is, indeed, a costume shirt foisted upon us by merchants who are selling fantasy.

I'm glad that he has at least come around enough to admit that it's a modern romanticised style that's not accurate in any way for the Jacobite period. That's a start.

[Ivor]

I have spent much time reading as many threads as possible and the overwhelming conclusion seems to be that, unlike everyday clothing, there is no flexibility in what an individual may wear and the way it should be worn. When I dress in the morning I give little thought as to whether my socks clash with my shirt or my shoes might not be appropriate. If I was to wear a kilt, however, it seems that I must be much more circumspect about such matters. Socks may only be a pre-ordained colour and, in no circumstances, white or tartan unless going to a formal occasion. The type of shirt that is the subject of this thread is a no-no unless I am re-enacting some historical event and so on, even the type of headwear is rigidly pre-ordained. Forgive my confusion which seems to increase with every thread that I read, particularly when those from a few years ago seem to contradict what I am now finding in more modern ones. Is it the case that opinions have become more rigid with the passage of time or is it just that those with more flexible views no longer contribute?

[Manu]

I have spent much time reading as many threads as possible and the overwhelming conclusion seems to be that, unlike everyday clothing, there is no flexibility in what an individual may wear and the way it should be worn. When I dress in the morning I give little thought as to whether my socks clash with my shirt or my shoes might not be appropriate. If I was to wear a kilt, however, it seems that I must be much more circumspect about such matters. Socks may only be a pre-ordained colour and, in no circumstances, white or tartan unless going to a formal occasion. The type of shirt that is the subject of this thread is a no-no unless I am re-enacting some historical event and so on, even the type of headwear is rigidly pre-ordained. Forgive my confusion which seems to increase with every thread that I read, particularly when those from a few years ago seem to contradict what I am now finding in more modern ones. Is it the case that opinions have become more rigid with the passage of time or is it just that those with more flexible views no longer contribute?

Ivor,
I consider myself to be pretty flexible. I follow traditional highland conventions when wearing the kilt but I can see why you are struggling with these things. So, kilt hose; when kilted, the hose are a very focal point of your attire, so it makes sense that you wear them appropriately. Much like when wearing a suit, you would not wear white socks or sports socks, right? So we do pay attention to our socks with Saxon attire. Tartan hose and patterned hose are worn depending on the level of formality. You can wear full diced or tartan hose on a daily basis if you like, but keep in mind that it is the equivalent of wearing a cummerbund to the office daily. You can do it, but it is out of place. There is no rigidity or written rules set in stone, but much like we have conventions when dressing in suits and other styles, highland kilted attire is very much the same.
Regarding the ghillie shirt, the discussion was more along the lines of whether or not it is traditional and has a historical basis in highland wear. Patrick argued that it is a historical style and the only appropriate shirt to be worn when kilted. People argued that point to where we are now. The ghillie shirt is popular enough now, and folks can wear it as they please, but do so knowing that the ghillie shirt has no historical basis in highland culture or the kilt and it is not the most appropriate shirt to wear with a kilted if you wish to follow highland kilted attire conventions, that's all.

I hope this helps you put things into perspective a bit more. Cheers!

[Allan Thomson]

I don't think the intent is to challenge Patrick on his choice. In his own way he commented on and asked opinions on the ghillie shirt, which if I'm paraphrasing correctly he considers a modern take on a romantic era. He likes it, he wears it, and was curious why more of us do not. He has certainly ignited a discussion!

Yeah, that wiki page is blandly void

I'm not challenging him on his choice. I'm challenging him on his statemrnt that the Jacobite/ghillie shirt is a garnment which dates back to pre proscription Highlanders...

I also continue to be curious as to why he doesn't wear a slashed doublet with his shirt despite having a fly plaid pinned to it?

[Wareyin]

I have spent much time reading as many threads as possible and the overwhelming conclusion seems to be that, unlike everyday clothing, there is no flexibility in what an individual may wear and the way it should be worn. When I dress in the morning I give little thought as to whether my socks clash with my shirt or my shoes might not be appropriate. If I was to wear a kilt, however, it seems that I must be much more circumspect about such matters. Socks may only be a pre-ordained colour and, in no circumstances, white or tartan unless going to a formal occasion. The type of shirt that is the subject of this thread is a no-no unless I am re-enacting some historical event and so on, even the type of headwear is rigidly pre-ordained. Forgive my confusion which seems to increase with every thread that I read, particularly when those from a few years ago seem to contradict what I am now finding in more modern ones. Is it the case that opinions have become more rigid with the passage of time or is it just that those with more flexible views no longer contribute?

One thing to consider is that you likely give little thought to whether your shirt and shoes clash because of more than one reason.
A: you have grown up with the customs of what "goes together" in your culture surrounding you. You likely don't have to think about what goes, it is just an ingrained habit to you.
B: you also likely don't even have socks that will clash with your shirt, because you have bought your clothes based on your lifetime of immersion into the fashion sense of your culture.

I, like many on this board, did not grow up in a kilt wearing culture. I don't have that lifetime of experience of seeing what those around me wear to understand the subtle (and not so subtle) rules of what will clash and what will go. I don't have a lifetime of kilt related clothing accumulated that all just sort of goes together because of an unconscious understanding of Scottish fashion sense. So I have to ask stupid questions, hammer out intricacies, and hope I don't look too foolish as I attempt to learn a different culture's aesthetic sense.

It's not any more rigid than Saxon clothing. We have rules about what sort of suit to wear to what occasion. Not everyone follows those rules, and not everyone in the kilted world follows their rules. If you were to look at websites dedicated to Saxon fashion such as The Gentleman's Gazette, you will find lists of what to wear and what not to wear that are every bit as strict as those you will find here for kilts.

I think this place has been extremely helpful in giving me advice on looking my best in the kilt, even if I am the only one in the room who has any idea of when to wear a dress sporran or tartan hose and when not to!

[Tobus]

I have spent much time reading as many threads as possible and the overwhelming conclusion seems to be that, unlike everyday clothing, there is no flexibility in what an individual may wear and the way it should be worn. When I dress in the morning I give little thought as to whether my socks clash with my shirt or my shoes might not be appropriate. If I was to wear a kilt, however, it seems that I must be much more circumspect about such matters. Socks may only be a pre-ordained colour and, in no circumstances, white or tartan unless going to a formal occasion. The type of shirt that is the subject of this thread is a no-no unless I am re-enacting some historical event and so on, even the type of headwear is rigidly pre-ordained. Forgive my confusion which seems to increase with every thread that I read, particularly when those from a few years ago seem to contradict what I am now finding in more modern ones. Is it the case that opinions have become more rigid with the passage of time or is it just that those with more flexible views no longer contribute?

No flexibility? That's not true at all. There is actually a lot of flexibility in wearing a kilt. One can choose to wear it as a silly costume, a historical reenactment piece, a modern grunge/ruffian outfit, a traditional expression of Scottish Highland culture, or many other avenues for personal expression. Remember, there are no kilt police and you're free to wear it however you like. The issues we discuss in threads like these come down to conventions and public perception, and it's certainly a good idea to know how your choices relate to those conventions so that you can make your choices in the context you choose.

It sort of amazes me that so many new kilt-wearers buy a kilt, knowing full well that it is a distinct piece of cultural garb with a rich history, but thinking that it comes with no attachments to any other cultural traditions. There are no more "rules" for kilt-wearing than there are for so-called "Saxon" clothing. The only difference is that you grew up knowing how to wear normal clothing and didn't have to learn it all from the internet. The traditions of wearing a kilt are slightly different, but no more rigid. It's just a matter of learning the cultural and contextual traditions of the kilt, and then choosing whether to apply that knowledge.

Let's say a person grew up outside of western culture and has only ever worn a loin cloth. If he were learning how to wear trousers and fit in with normal people in Europe or the USA, don't you think he might be a bit overwhelmed in learning all the little things that we take for granted? Like which socks are appropriate for wearing with a suit as opposed to blue jeans. Or understanding why a baseball cap doesn't quite go with a tuxedo. Or figuring out why shorts aren't appropriate for wearing to a funeral. He might be thinking, "Gosh, these people have too many rules!"

And indeed, there are no Saxon-style clothing police. If he wore a baseball cap with a tuxedo, no one will arrest him. But people will look at him funny and wonder what he was thinking. They just know what looks right and what looks wrong because they grew up with it, where he didn't. This is absolutely no different than traditional Highland dress. Those of us who did not grow up in that culture have a lot of catching up to do, in terms of coming to grips with what looks right and what looks out-of-place. We must learn from those who did. And if we still choose to ignore their advice and dress in a manner which might cause raised eyebrows, so be it.

Yes, you will undoubtedly find a lot of contradictions in our discussions. You'll find disagreements between Scots on what's appropriate. You'll find people (myself included) who have changed their views over time as we learned these cultural conventions and re-formed our opinions on what looks correct. It can indeed be very confusing, and it can take years to get the whole picture.

Once again, just for the record, you can choose to wear the kilt however you wish. Since this particular discussion is happening in the "contemporary kilt wear" forum, we needn't insist that everything be purely traditional. Deviating from tradition is up to each person, if they are trying to define their own look. But I think there's always value in understanding how and why certain things are deviations from tradition, so that one may make informed decisions. This thread about ghillie shirts is a perfect example, where a lot of people have been duped into thinking that this style of shirt is correct, genuine, and appropriate within Highland conventions. It really isn't, but if one chooses to wear it as a modern take on kilt-wearing, they should at least do so with that knowledge.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how you want to wear the kilt. You're free to take or ignore all the advice here. I, for one, am thankful for all the knowledge I've gained over the 9 years on this forum, even when it didn't agree with what I previously thought. I still learn something almost every time I visit. And the flexibility of wearing the kilt is much richer than I thought, but just not in the ways that I previously thought.

*edit: ha, Wareyin pretty much said what I said, but beat me to the punch while I was typing.

[Wareyin]

Tobus, yours was explained better!