Limits of tattersall

[Tobus]

It's likely a product of the fashion world going bankrupt and attempting to reinvent the wheel. You'd probably have to order from UK.

The Samuel Windsor shirts in my photos are sold/shipped from the UK. That aside, is the fashion industry going bankrupt? I hadn't heard that! Seems like they're doing just fine to me. Fashion never goes out of style.

I actually wonder how much of it is "Americanisation" of traditionally UK-based styles.

To me, the first picture Tobus posted is perfectly fine. The second one, the lines are a bit too wide for a kilt. I consider a traditional tattersall to be a subtle pattern on a light color base, white or off white or cream. Printed lines just means a lower cost to produce and hence a lower cost to the consumer. A fabric with woven lines will always be more expensive and consider a finer material. In the end, we are at the mercy of marketing departments that label shirts this that or the other. I've seen a huge spectrum of shirts marketed as tattersall, but if I had to draw the line somewhere based on traditional kilted attire, I would say the thinner and subtle pattern lines work best.

I agree with all your points above. I love patterned shirts of all sorts, and they primarily serve as my office work shirts - but it's nice to have some that work well with a kilt. Like you, I think my second shirt example is just over the line for "noise" with a tartan kilt. But it may actually just depend on the tartan itself. Perhaps a noisier shirt could work with a larger tartan sett, where it wouldn't with a smaller sett. Either way, that second shirt probably won't ever get worn with a kilt. I think it looks great with khakis and that tie, though.

I have several tattersall-ish shirts that have printed lines on thin material, and they just don't suit my fancy. I prefer a thicker brushed cotton material like these, with woven lines and a herringbone weave.

As for the grid pattern, I notice you used the word "subtle". Very subjective word! I have at least one higher-quality shirt where the pattern is a little too subtle, and it washes out from a distance and can't be seen. So it needs to be subtle but not too subtle in order to make for a nice balance, in my opinion. Interestingly enough, both the shirts in my examples have the same size grid pattern. The only difference is the line thicknesses and colours used. Yet it makes a huge aesthetic difference.

Here are a few of them in my closet (the two at left are my examples above). Notice the one at very right - smaller grid pattern and lighter lines. This shirt just looks light blue from a distance. Another smaller pattern one (not shown in the closet photo) is actually the one I'm wearing in my avatar, and you can't see the pattern from a distance. But up close, as shown below, it's a very subtle pattern. I wouldn't consider this a real tattersall shirt because it just doesn't have enough size or contrast. And while it may be perfectly traditional with a kilt, it's just not complex enough to be interesting.

[Tobus]

In a very similar vein as the old saying about Tartan -

All Tattersall are checks but not all checks are Tattersall.

This is Tattersall.

Right, this was sort of what I wanted to avoid, where we say there's only one true tattersall and everything else should be named differently. I'm not specifically after what defines tattersall, but more interested in what check/grid proportions are suitable and traditional with Highland kilts. And more importantly, why the proportions stop working when they're too small or large.

But I'm glad you posted that for a base reference. I scaled it up and took some proportional measurements (even though I said I didn't want to define things with measurements, LOL). If we call each grid 100 units, center to center, it seems that the line widths are somewhere around 23 units and the off-white fields are around 77 units. Somewhere around a 1:3 ratio. As a starting point for proportions, this seems good for proportionality. And it's rather on the heavy side compared to my first example with thinner lines.

[Profane James]

Fashion never goes out of style.

I disagree with this, but I believe I understand your point.

I actually wonder how much of it is "Americanisation" of traditionally UK-based styles

Ah, that may be a better way to describe it.

[Steve Ashton]

Tattersall is a very specific design first used by Tattersall's Horse market which began in 1766.

But yes, today almost any woven check fabric is called Tattersall.

[ShaunMaxwell]

I think that it might also depend upon whether or not you'd be wearing a jacket or waistcoat with the kilt/shirt combination in your second example. What might not work without a jacket might work with one, as you'd not see as much of the pattern.

That said, I think the first example works wonderfully, and the second might — depending upon what else you're wearing with it — though it might be pushing the limit a bit.

Cheers,

SM

[ShaunMaxwell]

... I scaled it up and took some proportional measurements (even though I said I didn't want to define things with measurements, LOL). If we call each grid 100 units, center to center, it seems that the line widths are somewhere around 23 units and the off-white fields are around 77 units. Somewhere around a 1:3 ratio. As a starting point for proportions, this seems good for proportionality. And it's rather on the heavy side compared to my first example with thinner lines.

Your engineering background is showing... HA!

SM

[Tobus]

I think that it might also depend upon whether or not you'd be wearing a jacket or waistcoat with the kilt/shirt combination in your second example. What might not work without a jacket might work with one, as you'd not see as much of the pattern.

That said, I think the first example works wonderfully, and the second might — depending upon what else you're wearing with it — though it might be pushing the limit a bit.

Cheers,

SM

Great point about jacket/waistcoat. One wonders if the total area of tattersall showing, or the distance of separation from the kilt, would make a pattern more visually acceptable. It's fascinating how our eyes and minds judge proportionality without really knowing it.

After thinking about Steve's example of original tattersall, I decided to overlay a cropped portion of that pattern over my second shirt example. It's difficult to get them to line up perfectly for comparison (I suck at photo editing), but I think you can see the general idea below. They're actually not that far off from each other in terms of line weight. But that small difference really does change our perception of the whole.

[Bruce Scott]

Post Deleted

[Jock Scot]

I would love to join in with the discussion on this thread, but I am away and don’t have the time,wherewithal, skill, or “puff” to join in sensibly and perhaps even helpfully at the moment! Great discussion though.

[tokareva]

It's likely a product of the fashion world going bankrupt and attempting to reinvent the wheel. You'd probably have to order from UK.
Here is a nice Barbour:
https://www.outdoorandcountry.co.uk/...l?c=Rich%20Red

Thanks for the interesting link, but $70.00 for a shirt, you've got to be joking. Nice shirts yes, but at that price I'll risk a slightly bolder pattern.