Sweater vest

**TheGratefulNed** · 5th December 18, 02:50 PM

Nah, no hard feeling here, Jock. Nor was it my intent to be dismissive of what you were saying or suggesting that I wouldn't or others shouldn't understand the terms as used in the garment's country of origin. I was merely attempting to point out that your dismissal of a very common American phrase referring to modes and levels of dress as "nonsense" and insisting that we use a different phrase with no meaning to us may not have been terribly helpful in answering the OP's inquiry.

Your response seemed a bit antagonistic to me and I offer my sincere apologies if that was a misreading of your words or tone. My only intent was trying to add some context to the term "semi-formal" as used in the United States, since, as you said "this is an international website." It's been a long week and it's only Wednesday afternoon, so some of the misreading may have come from my mind already being a bit frazzled. All in all, no hard feelings on this end and I do truly appreciate the advice and knowledge that the established members of this site bring and freely share with us fellow kilt lovers.

**Jock Scot** · 5th December 18, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by TheGratefulNed

Nah, no hard feeling here, Jock. Nor was it my intent to be dismissive of what you were saying or suggesting that I wouldn't or others shouldn't understand the terms as used in the garment's country of origin. I was merely attempting to point out that your dismissal of a very common American phrase referring to modes and levels of dress as "nonsense" and insisting that we use a different phrase with no meaning to us may not have been terribly helpful in answering the OP's inquiry.

Your response seemed a bit antagonistic to me and I offer my sincere apologies if that was a misreading of your words or tone. My only intent was trying to add some context to the term "semi-formal" as used in the United States, since, as you said "this is an international website." It's been a long week and it's only Wednesday afternoon, so some of the misreading may have come from my mind already being a bit frazzled. All in all, no hard feelings on this end and I do truly appreciate the advice and knowledge that the established members of this site bring and freely share with us fellow kilt lovers.

No doubt we will learn to get along.

Actually though, I do consider as the kilt is recognised the world over as Scottish attire, then Scottish/British dress conventions and descriptions should/do apply. It seems perfectly logical to me so to do.

Jock now dives for cover!!!

**Tobus** · 6th December 18, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by TheGratefulNed

On this side of the Atlantic (at least in the States, can't speak for Canada) "smart dress" isn't a phrase that many would understand because it's not commonly used here. And adding to what Father Bill said, terminology changes from region-to-region, between social and economic classes, and even sometimes from person-to-person or company-to-company in the same area. "Semi-formal," to me, is usually interchangeable with "business casual." You might have some people in suits or blazers, others in slacks and a button down shirt (with or without a sweater/sweater-vest over it) or polo/golf shirt. Amongst the suit/blazer and button-down shirts, you'll have some with ties and some without. I've had employers who stated "business casual" in their dress codes and meant slacks with a button-down shirt and tie, while others who also stated "business casual" were fine with jeans and a button-down shirt (no tie) or a polo shirt.

I've lived in America most of my life, and never heard anyone use the term "semi-formal" to describe an expected level of dress except for here on this forum. I do agree that "business casual" is one of those overused terms that nobody really understands what it means. In the Silicon Valley, it might mean jeans with holes in them and an untucked t-shirt. In my office here in Texas, it generally means khakis/slacks and either a polo-style shirt or button-up collared shirt (except for me, the lone person in the office who opts for a tie and often a jacket). Then, of course, there's the "casual Friday" that drops the "business" qualifier, and it's a constant battle on my part to keep my employees dressed appropriately. "Casual" should not devolve to "inappropriate".

Jock Scot's advice for us to adopt UK terminology on this site (since the kilt originated there) is what I've tried to do, and I think it's sound counsel for us all, to give us a common frame of reference. The term "semi-formal" really just needs to go away, as it is a misnomer that causes confusion.

**Baeau** · 6th December 18, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Tobus

......In the Silicon Valley, it might mean jeans with holes in them and an untucked t-shirt. In my office here in Texas, it generally means khakis/slacks and either a polo-style shirt or button-up collared shirt (except for me, the lone person in the office who opts for a tie and often a jacket). Then, of course, there's the "casual Friday" that drops the "business" qualifier, and it's a constant battle on my part to keep my employees dressed appropriately. "Casual" should not devolve to "inappropriate".

Jock Scot's advice for us to adopt UK terminology on this site (since the kilt originated there) is what I've tried to do, and I think it's sound counsel for us all, to give us a common frame of reference. The term "semi-formal" really just needs to go away, as it is a misnomer that causes confusion.

Tobus.............here, in Silicon Valley, all bets are off. With so many little (tiny) startups, business casual seems to be whatever was on top of the clothes pile, from the night before. You can't tell the players from the kids that are at the San Jose State University, or the local Junior Colleges. At some morning coffe / breakfast spots you can find the 'old guard'. Meaning khakis /slacks, polo shirts, some tie / sports jackets. A crowd you might be comfortable with.

As for Jock's comment, I agree. Back when I was importing from the UK, one of my vendors pushed me to using Her Majesty's English. The reply to my first fax included my first sent. It looked like a grade school paper, full of spelling errors, alterations, et cetera. Scrawled across the top was, "If you are going to deal with us, Mate.........................better learn our language!........Cheers!"

**tpa** · 6th December 18, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Swarley Q Danger

Is a pullover sweater vest ok to wear with a kilt? Semi formal event.

I would never associate wearing just a pullover (sweater) of any description with the word formal in any form. Faced with that sort of terminology, here in the UK, I would go with a jacket with or without button waistcoat (US: vest) depending on the ambient temperature.

**Crag Forster** · 7th December 18, 07:47 AM

Enjoyed reading this thread and thought I would just add a photo of a sweater vest incorporated with a jacket and tie.

Craig Forster

**kingandrew** · 7th December 18, 08:26 AM

Regarding the Silicon Valley definition of "business attire," I was quite shocked when I met up with my son (who is a software engineer) at his job, working for a Fortune 500 company at their Atlanta office. He came out to the lobby to meet me wearing a Star Wars t-shirt, cutoff shorts, and flip-flops. I was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, shorts, and hiking boots (I was on summer vacation), but I was definitely one of the better-dressed men at the office that day.

I can honestly say that I've always worn a shirt and tie to work when I had a job in an office or classroom (retail jobs have their own uniforms, which often lack a tie). I'm all for comfort, but I also like to look good. However, in software, there seems to be a bit of reverse snobbery at times against looking like you care about appearances.

Of course, the fact that I'm on this web site indicates that I'm not afraid to stand out or be a bit "overdressed," since I regularly wear a kilt. So my views should be understood in that context. And i did just turn 50, so maybe I'm just complaining about "kids today."

Andrew

**huntgathergrow** · 7th December 18, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Father Bill

The trouble with all of these terms is that they morph and slide back and forth. I was always taught that "Formal" meant white tie and tails. "Semi-formal meant dinner jacket (black or white) and black tie - what Americans call a tuxedo. Below that was "Business" which was a lounge suit and "Casual" which meant everything else.

Those are simply not the way the terms are used today, and frankly, if you go across the county line they'll be used differently. End result: the terminology is worthless.

I agree. Growing up in rural Tennessee, we had "church clothes" and "work clothes", basically. And usually, your "church clothes" often became your "work clothes" when your current items were worn out. You then got new church clothes.

**tpa** · 7th December 18, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Crag Forster

Enjoyed reading this thread and thought I would just add a photo of a sweater vest incorporated with a jacket and tie.

Craig Forster

Here is your picture:

**huntgathergrow** · 7th December 18, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

I am afraid to say that as this is an international website, then advice comes in all varieties of English and national terminologies, particularly as we are discussing a Scottish garment then I am sorry to say that I am unable to speak in "Americanese". Thus far, over the last decade or so on this website I have managed transatlantic discussions pretty well----there has been the odd hicup on occasion-------- and there has been a refreshing willingness from the USA to learn from this side of the Atlantic specifically on kilt matters and kilt terminology. I am sorry that my advice has been so readily dismissed by you. No hard feelings though.

I appreciate the phrase "smart dress". While it's not in my daily vocabulary, I understand it and appreciate the imagery it provides.