True Irish national tartan?

[Steve Ashton]

I'm sorry, the colors do not have any other meaning than why the designer chose.

It seems that you are looking for some "official" meaning behind the colors. Both of these Tartan designs are very new. They are not ancient and do not have any special significance.

[Dollander]

It's the thread count that makes it a specific tartan, i.e. how many threads of green, red, blue, etc. and in what sequence. The Irish National tartan is a specific pattern of green, gold, black, and white threads that is owned by House of Edgar, who exclusively produces it in wool, and licensed to Stillwater for production in acrylic. I think what Stillwater is warning against is sellers who not only offer a simplified, knockoff version, but actually call it Irish National (as opposed to something more generic like "Irish green") in the hopes that uninformed customers will think they're getting the real deal.

A weaver could produce that knockoff pattern in the exact same shades of green and gold as the fabric from Stillwater, but that doesn't make it any less inauthentic. And if they were to copy the thread counts exactly without House of Edgar's permission, then that would be a trademark/copyright infringement...but then again, so is calling it Irish National. That's why the one owned by USA Kilts is called Ireland's National, because it's a different pattern and thus has a (however slightly) different name.

[Tarheel]

This is why I ask questions here. I get real (and sometimes difficult technical) answers. That is how I learn best. Sorry to be a pill at times.

Thanks for the clarifications.

[OC Richard]

There are two Tartans which are commonly mistaken.

The Irish National



And Ireland's National

Irish National was designed for House Of Edgar in 1996 by Polly Wittering as part of HOE's launch of a series of Irish tartans for every Irish county (all designed by Ms Wittering AFAIK). Many of Ms Wittering's "Irish" tartans are quite lovely. Though Irish National uses the colours of the Irish flag, her Irish county tartans seem to purely be designed to be attractive (the colours not corresponding to the county GAA colours for example). The rights to Irish National are owned by HOE.

Ireland's National is essentially the same tartan with a reversal of the white and yellow stripes (white becomes yellow, yellow becomes white) and was designed in 2005 by Tartan Web. In 2012 the rights to the tartan were acquired by USA Kilts.

About which is the "true" Irish tartan, as you can see neither has any tradition or history in Ireland, both being designed and produced by Scottish weavers.

They are popular tartans and I think it's nice when people know the history of the tartans they wear.

BTW the 1996 Polly Wittering "Irish National" tartan strikes my eye to be a simplification of the so-called Tara tartan (having any elements not white, yellow, black, or green removed)



https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/ta...tails?ref=4071

of which the book District Tartans has this to say:

"It has not been possible to establish a local connection in Ireland for the "Tara district tartan". Its thread count was noted in Clans Originaux Paris c1880. The tartan was then know as "Murphy". (The Tartan Register states that all of the purported Irish tartans in that book have been shown to have been Scottish.) The date of appending the name "Tara" is uncertain but it was ordered as such from The Kilt Shop (Edinburgh) in 1967.

Tara is a colour-change on MacLean of Duart which in turn is a variation of Royal Stewart."

Yes in all of the above tartans (Tara, Ireland National, Ireland's National) we see the white and yellow lines which appear on Royal Stewart. It's convenient because once you change the ground-colour of MacLean of Duart or Royal Stewart to green you have the green/white/yellow (substituting for orange) tricolour of the Irish flag etc.

As you can see Tartan Web's "Ireland's National" has elements of Ms Wittering's tartan and Tara; one could say it's a compromise between the two.

Personally if I were to choose from the above I would go with Tara 1) because it can be traced to the 19th century and 2) it's a more attractive design.

[Karl R]

I took a look at The Scottish Register of Tartans, and Ireland's National is listed as a "District" tartan, while Irish National is listed as a "Fashion" tartan. I'm not sure there's any requirements that would make a district tartan more official than a fashion tartan, though.

It also looks like there are three additional district tartans for Ireland which were designed by Locharron of Scotland: All Ireland Green, All Ireland Blue, All Ireland Red.

[OC Richard]

I took a look at The Scottish Register of Tartans, and Ireland's National is listed as a "District" tartan, while Irish National is listed as a "Fashion" tartan. I'm not sure there's any requirements that would make a district tartan more official than a fashion tartan, though.

That is odd. One would think they would both be District Tartans.

About being official, I don't think any of them are official in any way. I doubt that many Irish people know or care that Scottish weavers are creating dozens of tartans and giving them Irish names.

It also looks like there are three additional district tartans for Ireland which were designed by Locharron of Scotland: All Ireland Green, All Ireland Blue, All Ireland Red.

The All Ireland Green is very nice! https://www.lochcarron.co.uk/all-ire...tartan-fabric/ I've seen that worn quite a bit, for example by American "Irish" pipe bands.

Surprising how many Scottish weavers are involved in making these Irish-themed tartans; obviously a market exists. I see that in 1996 Lochcarron launched its own Irish-themed tartan series, presumably due to the success of the House Of Edgar Irish-themed tartans.

I'm guessing that the vast majority of the customers for these Irish-themed tartans are outwith Ireland. I would guess further that most of the customers are Americans, to whom the idea of Scottish designed and woven tartans with Irish names seems unexceptional, with so many Americans stating "Scotch Irish" ancestry.

[figheadair]

of which the book District Tartans has this to say:

"It has not been possible to establish a local connection in Ireland for the "Tara district tartan". Its thread count was noted in Clans Originaux Paris c1880. The tartan was then know as "Murphy". (The Tartan Register states that all of the purported Irish tartans in that book have been shown to have been Scottish.) The date of appending the name "Tara" is uncertain but it was ordered as such from The Kilt Shop (Edinburgh) in 1967.

For clarification, Clans Originaux was the name of a book of tartan samples belonging to a firm called J. Claude et Fil. At least three copies survive, the STA has one, and none have threadcounts, only small samples stuck onto a series of bound pages. The threadcount for the Murphy/Tara may have been taken from one of these but it could equally have been derived from a specimen of MacLean of Duart with the colour names changed where required.

[Me cousin Jack]

I’ve no idea behind the meaning of the colors used in either of these tartans, but they’ve always reminded me of the green open fields indicative of the British isles, or in song, “four green fields”

[figheadair]

I’ve no idea behind the meaning of the colors used in either of these tartans, but they’ve always reminded me of the green open fields indicative of the British isles, or in song, “four green fields”

The idea that colours in tartan have meanings is fairly recent and I have to say, somewhat annoying.

[Me cousin Jack]

The idea that colours in tartan have meanings is fairly recent and I have to say, somewhat annoying.

annoying to keep track off given the vasts amounts? Or in concept? Or ???