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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    Hummm, why so cautious?
    Because I don't want to walk out of the house looking like I got dressed in the dark, and simply grabbed the first set of clothes that I could reach. I don't want people to assume that I'm colorblind. I don't want people to wonder whether I was dressed by clowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    You have no bother about wearing the kilt which is hardly a common form of attire in North America, so why bother with North American sensibilities with your colour choices with the rest of your kilt attire?
    By that line of reasoning, why not ignore the color sensibilities of Scotland, North America, and every other country as well? There won't be any Scots around to tell others that I'm actually violating the Scottish color sensibilities.

    More seriously....

    Most people in the U.S. have some understanding/opinion about how to color coordinate a jacket, dress shirt and necktie ... even if they don't understand how to properly dress up a kilt. Similarly, they will have an opinion of whether someone is overdressed or under-dressed for an occasion, even if the opinion is based solely on the clothes worn above the waist.

    If the portion from the waist up looks well put together (in their opinion), they'll assume the rest of it is equally well put together. If the portion from the waist up looks like a series of fashion mistakes.... At that point, it doesn't matter whether they assume the rest of the outfit is a mistake or not. The outfit will look poorly put together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    Wear the kilt and attire like its supposed to be man! The traditional Scottish way!
    It's possible to wear the kilt and attire in ways that look fashionable and appropriate in both Scotland and the U.S. simultaneously. Look at Prince Charles, the Duke of Rothesay as an example.

    Can you give me one good reason why I should choose to ignore U.S. color sensibilities, particularly when it's possible to dress in a way that meets both countries' color criteria simultaneously?
    Trying to look good on a budget.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl R View Post
    Because I don't want to walk out of the house looking like I got dressed in the dark, and simply grabbed the first set of clothes that I could reach. I don't want people to assume that I'm colorblind. I don't want people to wonder whether I was dressed by clowns.


    By that line of reasoning, why not ignore the color sensibilities of Scotland, North America, and every other country as well? There won't be any Scots around to tell others that I'm actually violating the Scottish color sensibilities.

    More seriously....

    Most people in the U.S. have some understanding/opinion about how to color coordinate a jacket, dress shirt and necktie ... even if they don't understand how to properly dress up a kilt. Similarly, they will have an opinion of whether someone is overdressed or under-dressed for an occasion, even if the opinion is based solely on the clothes worn above the waist.

    If the portion from the waist up looks well put together (in their opinion), they'll assume the rest of it is equally well put together. If the portion from the waist up looks like a series of fashion mistakes.... At that point, it doesn't matter whether they assume the rest of the outfit is a mistake or not. The outfit will look poorly put together.


    It's possible to wear the kilt and attire in ways that look fashionable and appropriate in both Scotland and the U.S. simultaneously. Look at Prince Charles, the Duke of Rothesay as an example.

    Can you give me one good reason why I should choose to ignore U.S. color sensibilities, particularly when it's possible to dress in a way that meets both countries' color criteria simultaneously?
    My laptop has just started to play up, so lets see how we go.

    Actually I and many other experienced kilt wearers in the highlands do pretty much dress without much thought, I certainly do, as do my family, very much just reach into the wardrobe and grab the first shirt, hose, tie that comes to hand. I am able to do this because I have just two kilts both of the same tartan, so I know that my dozen or so shirts and maybe a dozen pairs of hose and a handful of ties, one sporran and one set of flashes will work with the kilt whichever bit of attire I might grab. So all this matching and co-ordinating idea, probably subconsciously as we had others to use as attire examples, was sorted out several decades ago in our youth.

    From a Highland Sots point of view judging on what is posted here, many examples posted by those outwith the Highlands(including many from Lowland Scotland)the colour choices and attire choices do very much baffle and confuse-----in the nicest possible way--- the Highland Scots eye. There are several fairly recent threads here that illustrate the point.

    The Duke of Rothsay is a fine example of wearing traditional kilt attire, its a shame that many kilt wearers worldwide fail to emulate what, how and when to wear the kilt and its attire. We don't see him wearing the kilt, black bow tie, PC, fly plaid and ghillie brogues to a wedding do we? But many show themselves doing just that on this website.

    Steve does point out, quite rightly, in this thread that there are dangers of people putting too much faith in internet adverts and pictures that sadly, often become expensive disappointments, if they choose to follow those as examples and they do in droves!

    If you want a good reason why those from outwith Scotland and yes those from North America particularly should ignore US colour sensibilities, is that on the whole-----there are honourable exceptions------they get their attire oh so wrong and quite often the colour combinations are an assault on a Highlanders eye! You only need to read back ten years to see countless threads where I and others have spent countless hours trying to explain!

    The problem is that if you chaps over there get your choices wrong and keep getting it wrong, then it only perpetuates the costume aspect that seems to prevail outwith the Highlands.

    I say all of the above with the greatest of respect and I hope, not without a wee tad of tongue in cheek humour and-----a certain amount of good humoured exasperation!
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 16th May 19 at 01:22 PM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    The Duke of Rothsay is a fine example of wearing traditional kilt attire, its a shame that many kilt wearers worldwide fail to emulate what, how and when to wear the kilt and its attire. We don't see him wearing the kilt, black bow tie, PC, fly plaid and ghillie brogues to a wedding do we?
    I was unaware that he had ever worn a kilt to a wedding or a wedding reception. Could you point me towards some photos where he has?

    Correct me if I'm mistaken, but a PC, bow tie, and ghillie brogues would be the equivalent of a Saxonwear tuxedo, correct? Guess who I found photos of wearing tuxedos to wedding receptions. At least one of those photos appears to have been taken before 6pm ... probably because the reception would last until well past 6pm.

    For people in the U.S. whose weddings are a bit less ostentatious than a royal wedding, the wedding often takes place in the afternoon, followed by an evening reception, frequently at the exact same location. Attendees don't go home to change clothes. Moreover, it's well understood that in the U.S., the wedding party wears tuxedos at a formal wedding. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with U.S. weddings, but most of the photos taken (and posted online) will be of the wedding party.

    Maybe the people you're exasperated with are attired closer to the Duke of Rothesay than you previously imagined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    Actually I and many other experienced kilt wearers in the highlands do pretty much dress without much thought, I certainly do, as do my family, very much just reach into the wardrobe and grab the first shirt, hose, tie that comes to hand. I am able to do this because I have just two kilts both of the same tartan, so I know that my dozen or so shirts and maybe a dozen pairs of hose and a handful of ties, one sporran and one set of flashes will work with the kilt whichever bit of attire I might grab.
    Like most Americans, my shirts and neckties were purchased to match suits, jackets and slacks that were gray, navy, black or brown. So when we (Americans) get lectured by Highlanders (you or others) that you just grab any shirt and necktie (etc.) without worrying about color coordination, I have to wonder how many pink, burgundy, purple, yellow, orange, mint green, etc. shirts you happen to own. And I'm being nice by starting with shirts. Most Americans use their neckties to provide the really lively color to their outfits.

    Do you really want to claim that everything in my closet would coordinate well with your kilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    So all this matching and co-ordinating idea, probably subconsciously as we had others to use as attire examples, was sorted out several decades ago in our youth.
    I actually get this. I keep two sports coats and two neckties at work, just in case I have to dress up for an unexpected client meeting. Regardless of what shirt and slacks I wear to work, both jackets and at least one necktie will coordinate with my attire.

    But it would be a bit disingenuous for me to claim that I can just randomly grab something out of my closet at work and have it work with my outfit. Every purchase of dress shirts, dress slacks, sports coats, and neckties for the last decade or more has ensured that's the case. It's about as random as grandmaster chess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    Steve does point out, quite rightly, in this thread that there are dangers of people putting too much faith in internet adverts and pictures that sadly, often become expensive disappointments, if they choose to follow those as examples and they do in droves!
    Those adverts are the most plentiful photos available to those of us on this side of the pond. (Okay ... third most ... right behind Braveheart memes and bagpipers.) Even on this forum, the three most prolific Scots are you, Highland Logan and EdinSteve. I'm not naive enough to believe that you three collectively speak for Scots, highlanders, or lowlanders. You speak for three individuals ... and I give that degree of weight to your opinions. (Especially given how often you disagree with each other.)

    Furthermore, none of you are prolific with posting photos. I think I could easily name at least 20 forum members that I see far more photos of (including jthk, Tripleblessed and Shaun Maxwell ... and I specifically chose them because they're not the most prolific photo posters).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    From a Highland Sots point of view judging on what is posted here, many examples posted by those outwith the Highlands(including many from Lowland Scotland)the colour choices and attire choices do very much baffle and confuse-----in the nicest possible way--- the Highland Scots eye.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    If you want a good reason why those from outwith Scotland and yes those from North America particularly should ignore US colour sensibilities, is that on the whole-----there are honourable exceptions------they get their attire oh so wrong and quite often the colour combinations are an assault on a Highlanders eye! You only need to read back ten years to see countless threads where I and others have spent countless hours trying to explain!
    Verbal explanations of color combinations? Again, where are the photos?

    Frankly, the verbal explanations from the highlanders sound (to non-highlanders) like "anything goes" (such as "why bother with North American sensibilities with your colour choices") ... and that advice lasts right up until one of us posts a photo ... which is when the actual critiques start.

    I'm the one advocating fewer colors, tighter color coordinating ... and you're advising not worrying about that ... and then you wonder why Americans' color choices look like visual assaults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    The problem is that if you chaps over there get your choices wrong and keep getting it wrong, then it only perpetuates the costume aspect that seems to prevail outwith the Highlands.
    That's a very binary perspective.

    Does Riverkilt look like he's wearing a costume?

    Okay ... I can't speak for highlanders. Maybe to you he does. To any of us on this side of the pond, his kilts look like a pants alternative. But his choices also look very non-highlander. It's clothing, not a costume.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    I say all of the above with the greatest of respect and I hope, not without a wee tad of tongue in cheek humour and-----a certain amount of good humoured exasperation!
    The good humored exasperation goes both ways.

    You're suggesting that those of us on this side of the pond should ignore local sartorial conventions, and should instead dress in a way that does not offend your personal sensibilities.

    When I next wear a kilt (in about 40+ hours), I'll be surrounded by 250-300 locals (including such notables as my wife, close friends, etc.), who will definitely see me. In contrast, there's only a tiny chance that someone will take a photo of me, post it on the internet, where it will come to the attention of a native Scot.

    Guess whose opinions I'll be giving slightly greater weight to....


    And to bring things full circle, if Sir Didymous leans toward the "anything goes" style that you seem to espouse, I'm going to advise him to borrow from the (conservative) sartorial standards of his community.
    Trying to look good on a budget.

  5. #14
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    Alright Karl, we donít agree and we will doubtless continue to disagree and I am not prepared to continue, as our good natured discussion is likely to dissolve into something that this website could do without. We clearly and probably understandably, have come from different backgrounds and cultures and just as clearly we have voiced our respective points of view and have sadly, failed to find common ground. I regret that and I hope you agree that we can at least agree to differ.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Didymous View Post
    I wore brown hose with red garter ties, a light blue shirt, a brown patterned tie, and a bottle green jacket. I tried to walk the middle line between complementary and contrasting colors.
    Interesting choices, I'm trying to paint a mental picture of it.

    If you would indulge me a moment as I put my artist-colour-theory hat on, those colours IMHO are working at cross-purposes.

    Staying within an earth-toned outfit yes for the brown hose and brown tie. The light blue shirt makes an excellent contrast; you'll note how often light blue and brown are used together. They work because they function more or less as complimentary colours (if you think of brown as being a dark dull orange).

    What I would change, personally, is the jacket colour. You have a green/green thing going on with the tartan, clashing IMHO not because of hue but because of saturation.

    Oftentimes outfits co-ordinate well more because the saturations are consistent than because of the hues involved.

    Weathered tartans bring together colours of lower saturation, and if you throw any high-saturation colour with it you have a clash.

    Here are examples of low-saturation or "soft" colours;; the hues are all over the place but they co-ordinate due to similar saturation.





    Now throw one of these colours in there! It doesn't go! No matter what the hue. Because these are high-saturation colours.

    (Mostly, there are a couple softer colours below.)



    Bottle Green, at least what I've seen in Scottish jackets and hose, is a dark strong green like the green in "modern" tartans.

    IMHO better to go with a non-colour such as black or grey, or an earth tone that co-ordinates with the tartan, or low-saturation blue, which ought to co-ordinate though it contrasts.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 18th May 19 at 06:39 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  9. #16
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    I find that it’s almost impossible to change the way that adults think about their clothes.

    My guess is that Jock’s advice is easily heeded and accepted by folks who already have a traditional and conservative wardrobe in their closets. It’s not failed me, at least, so far.

    On the other hand, if one has a closet filled with “pink, burgundy, purple, yellow, orange, mint green, etc. shirts” then there’s really just no bridging the gap.

    A fellow who wants to emulate the dress of Highlanders can find plenty of good examples to follow.

    A guy who is convinced in his own mind that he’s “doing it right” has no need for the advice of others.
    Last edited by davidlpope; 19th May 19 at 12:02 PM.

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