1750ish to 1767 Highland Regiments Backsword

[Jacques]

Is anyone aware of a maker or seller for an authentic reproduction Highland Regiment/Government issue backsword for the period of The French and Indian war? Really hoping Luke MacGillie, Orvis and some of the other history experts, students and reenactors might be able to supply some helpful information. So far i've located two companies in Canada who should but do not offer what i want and a US company in Valley Forge PA that may have what i want but have no photo's on their website to prove it so.

Thanks much

Jacques

[Orvis]

Is anyone aware of a maker or seller for an authentic reproduction Highland Regiment/Government issue backsword for the period of The French and Indian war? Really hoping Luke MacGillie, Orvis and some of the other history experts, students and reenactors might be able to supply some helpful information. So far i've located two companies in Canada who should but do not offer what i want and a US company in Valley Forge PA that may have what i want but have no photo's on their website to prove it so.

Thanks much

Jacques

The only sutler (a merchant catering to reenactors) that I know of that sells regimental backswords is G. Gedney Godwin Inc (The Sutler of Mt Misery) of Valley Forge PA. I had one of Godwin's backswords when I got started in a recreated British Army Highland regiment (77th Foot) of the French and Indian War period. The quality was okay, although the sword was heavier than originals, the hilt was a bit too big and the blade wasn't of really fine steel. As to the blade, it didn't break when I slashed at a hay bale with wire fasteners (I thought they were fiber strings), but every once in a while I had to work out little bends in the blade. The scabbard was wood-lined (incorrect - the contracts for regimental backswords specified scabbards of pasteboard lathes covered with very thin leather) and the mounts were of brass (should have been iron). But the Godwin sword served me well for about ten years, until I could afford a correct regimental backsword.

The sword I got was by Donnie Shearer (doing business as "The Mad Piper"). Donnie is an admitted freeman of the Society of Hammermen of Glasgow (one of only two Americans, the other being Glenn McClain, the dirk maker), and his swords were worth the money (I recall paying almost U.S. $700 for mine). It had a correct blade (an Italian Del Tin make), and the hilt was correctly sized of japanned sheet iron (the original 18th c. swords were sold to the Government by English sword cutlers for eight shillings and were considered cheap "ammunition quality" - if a soldier provided his own sword, he was paid "sword money" by the Colonel), complete with a rayskin grip and an unlined leather scabbard with iron mounts. Unfortunately, Donnie is retired and there won't be any more swords coming from his shop. So if you find one for sale, snap it up. My recommendation is that you purchase a Godwin backsword. It is the most correct available sword for your intended use. And you won't have to worry about the sword being for anything but looks.

Incidentally, the type of government-issued backsword issued to Highland regiments were in use from the 1750s until the sword was withdrawn from use by rank-and-file Highlanders (except serjeants) in the 1780s. In reality, baskethilt backswords were simply items of dress after the French & Indian War period, and were routinely left in stores when a Highland regiment went on active service in the field.

[Jacques]

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pa...Collection.htm

This site has some very dearly priced swords, but i haven't noticed any that come close enough for me to fitting the Ammunition Grade look. The closest they have by memory might be the 18th Century Glasgow Style Basket Hilt - SC7 or the Acid Etched Scottish Basket Hilt -SC5, without the acid etching. Perhaps if i speak with the Blade Smith he may consider a custom order. But i fear the price may be prohibitive.

However i have also read the 78th Highlanders were issued broadswords from their CO, the cost of which was deducted from the soldiers pay. i have so far only found one reference to this and prefer two or three before considering it likely (fact). But in another book a soldier of the 78th Regt mentions using the broadsword in battle and has a family heirloom of a broadsword with what appears to be a custom basket (fact?). So it appears to me the 78 Regt made more use of their swords, whichever styles and from where ever they came from, than the 42 or 77 Regts. All this information produces more questions and headaches. Did the 78th use a sword different from the other regiments? If so, what did it look like? And is the image and photo from my one reference from Osprey Publishing the correct ammunition grade, British armoury issue sword? Maybe i've been reading the wrong books for the subject matter at hand.

Any further information from the Rabble more informed than myself and a positive link to a helpful Blade Smith would be appreciated.

Sincerely

Jacques

[figheadair]

Macdonald Armouries - It's not my field and I know little of his work, others may.

[Luke MacGillie]

The regimental hilt sword market right now is horrible. Godwin no longer has backswords, only broadswords. CAS/Henwai’s sword is no longer in production, Mad Piper retired, I’m pretty sure MacDonald Armories has a multi year backlog.

There is no affordable option really for an enlisted mans issue sword.

I’m lucky that I have a Bicentennial era Godwin and fell into a Mad Piper hilt that I am finishing putting a blade on. These are now loaner swords for the units I belong to.

It’s hard to give advice on this topic.

[Jacques]

The regimental hilt sword market right now is horrible. Godwin no longer has backswords, only broadswords. CAS/Henwai’s sword is no longer in production, Mad Piper retired, I’m pretty sure MacDonald Armories has a multi year backlog.

There is no affordable option really for an enlisted mans issue sword.

I’m lucky that I have a Bicentennial era Godwin and fell into a Mad Piper hilt that I am finishing putting a blade on. These are now loaner swords for the units I belong to.

It’s hard to give advice on this topic.

Thank-you sir, i was hoping you'd jump in. i have access to the CAS backsword, but besides being of stainless steel (basket), did not think the basket was authentic to be considered Regt issue or ammunition grade. Armour Class (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_2.htm) swords has one basket similar to a photo i have seen of the heirloom broadsword allegedly carried by James Thompson with the 78th Regt. And i have one other reference the 78th Regt carried broadswords, but am not 100% convinced this is fact. i do know for certain the 77 Regt and the 42 Regt (at least when they departed for North America) were all in possession of government issue backswords. Armour swords (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_9.htm) also has a basket very similar to one made by Donnie Shearer, a name provided to me by Orvis. All the online searching has made me conclude i will never find exactly what i want, but can get very close depending on the size of my budget.

Thanks much

Jacques

[plaid preacher]

Jacques,

William Scully in Montreal provide swords to the Canadian Forces and have Scottish regimental swords.

[Orvis]

Thank-you sir, i was hoping you'd jump in. i have access to the CAS backsword, but besides being of stainless steel (basket), did not think the basket was authentic to be considered Regt issue or ammunition grade. Armour Class (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_2.htm) swords has one basket similar to a photo i have seen of the heirloom broadsword allegedly carried by James Thompson with the 78th Regt. And i have one other reference the 78th Regt carried broadswords, but am not 100% convinced this is fact. i do know for certain the 77 Regt and the 42 Regt (at least when they departed for North America) were all in possession of government issue backswords. Armour swords (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_9.htm) also has a basket very similar to one made by Donnie Shearer, a name provided to me by Orvis. All the online searching has made me conclude i will never find exactly what i want, but can get very close depending on the size of my budget.

Thanks much

Jacques

I agree with Luke on the state of the regimental backsword market. About the only way you can get one is to luckily encounter an Highland reenactor who is quitting/retiring and is willing to sell an authentic sword. It will cost you some money, especially if it is a Mad Piper sword. You can commission a custom-made sword, but that will cost you some money, possibly to prohibitive levels. Mike McRae, who specializes in 18th c. Highland dirks, has made baskethilt swords (he received instruction from Donnie Shearer) and might consider a commission if you can show him what you want; I have no idea what Mike would charge for such a project. Or, as Luke mentioned, Godwin still sells baskethilt broadswords, which have essentially the same hilt as his former regimental backsword. If you don't mind spending some money, you could purchase one of those and reblade it with a Del Tin backsword blade, then get a correct scabbard made. It might cost you U.S. $1,000 to get all this done.

As to the 78th Regiment (1757-63), it was issued government "ammunition quality" backswords through the Ordnance system. Possibly some of the men (such as Serjeant Thompson, who was a gentleman volunteer) brought their own swords and were paid "sword money" by the regiment for putting their swords into government service. In the Ordnance system, the Ordnance contracted for arms needed by the various regiments. In the case of baskethilt swords, they contracted with Nathaniel Jefferys and Dru Drury, sword cutlers of London, who produced the swords and sold them to the government for five shillings each. The government, in turn, sold them to the regimental colonels (who annually received money from the Crown for raising/maintaining their regiments). While the ORs had to pay the Colonel (through their company commanders) for their uniforms and various other equipage, I have found no documentation to indicate that they had to pay for their arms. Insofar as the 78th Regiment is concerned, you are right about them using their swords more than the other Highland regiments in North America (42nd RHR and Montgomery's 77th) - they famously used their swords in the climatic charge at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham (Quebec City) in 1759. Members of the 42nd may have charged with swords at the 1758 Battle of Ticonderoga. As to the 77th, it was a mixed bag as a Highland regiment - Archibald Montgomery, its Colonel, recruited from both sides of the Highland line and for many of the men, the Highland charge (with swords) wasn't in their heritage. The 78th, on the other hand, was recruited from formerly Jacobite areas of the west Highlands, and many of the men had fought in Prince Charlie's army in the '45 Rising, and had been taught from childhood how to fight with Highland weapons.

With regard to swords, you will want to read two books: John Wallace's "Scottish Swords and Dirks," Harrisburg PA, Stackpole Books, 1970, and Anthony D. Darling's "Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784," Lincoln, RI: Andrew Mowbray Inc., 1988. You should be able to find these books via Amazon - they may not be cheap. These books will provide you with all the information you could reasonably want on Highland regimental swords.

[Jacques]

i had not considered taking the best of two to make one. If the G Godwin basket is as good, or at least passable as you and Luke suggest, i could assemble one with a Del Tin blade. And i agree with your comments on Thompson, who was also known to embellish some of his stories the more he repeated them. As he was looking for a commission it kind of makes sense he would have used his own sword as i'm sure most of the other officers had. i'd love to have access to the 78th Regts QM records for 1757. Armour class has some nice swords but have not seen any of their baskets close to authentic for what i desire, although they do have one basket very similar to the one used by Thompson. Both the books you referenced are available on Amazon, but they're sure not giving them away.

Sincerely

Jacques

[Orvis]

Jacques,

I'm sure Serjeant Thompson supplied his own sword, as he came from a socially well-off family and (as you said) was hoping as a volunteer to snag a commission in the regiment. Since officers had to supply their own uniforms, arms, etc, they would be using family heirlooms, or swords purchased from Glasgow or Stirling sword cutlers. I agree with you on the quality and authenticity of Armour Class (of Glasgow) swords - I have one of their broadswords with a Stirling hilt that I employ when I'm portraying a Highland gentleman with my Appin Regiment 1745 reenactment group. I think Armour Class is missing out on some sales by not including in their line a backsword with a regimental OR hilt. Their swords aren't that expensive - about USD $600 (or a little more) - and they would certainly have a market in the reenactment community!