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  1. #21
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    If you like a particular tartan, ultimately there is not much stopping you from wearing it.

    Just go for it.

    Whilst my personal preference is to wear something I have a connection to I would not object in the slightest to anyone else wearing the same tartan for whatever reason - or even ask them about it, let alone challenge them on it.

    I have 3 kilts in different variants of MacFarlane tartan, plus 2 ex-hire kilts I purchased mainly for when I am doing guided-tours in Scotland to avoid to avoid hard wear on my other kilts (one is a house tartan the other in Scottish Rugby tartan).

    Next on my wish list is weathered Douglas. I have no obvious connection to the clan, although both sides of my family (at different times) came from Castle Douglas.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tripleblessed View Post
    The meeting referenced was indeed in the time period cited, and I think 1825 is actually a few years late, though not many. The case was brought to the group by a member who clearly thought there would interest in it. It was carefully laid out in the meeting and duly recorded in the minutes. Having always been told there is/was very little to no law on these matters, I read it carefully. I did not make notes...
    As with all historical matters, one needs to see the primary source.

    I'm especially scrutinous due to being very interested in History and also being a piper.

    Like all other pipers I had read and heard the same stories about the origin of the Highland pipes (and bagpipes in general).

    When I began applying the approach of a Historian to the origin of the bagpipe I found that none of the origin-stories about bagpipes had any supporting evidence.

    It was a matter of stories being repeated so often, and by so many people in important positions, that they had become to be regarded as facts.

    Highland Dress and Tartan have likewise built around them mythologies. Before I accept any story about these topics as factual I require supporting evidence.

    So it is with your story. The story as presented doesn't match up well with the known timeline of the development of Clan tartans. Until I see the original source document I will consider it a story.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 7th November 19 at 07:05 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    As with all historical matters, one needs to see the primary source.

    It was a matter of stories being repeated so often, and by so many people in important positions, that they had become to be regarded as facts.

    Highland Dress and Tartan have likewise built around them mythologies. Before I accept any story about these topics as factual I require supporting evidence.

    So it is with your story. The story as presented doesn't match up well with the known timeline of the development of Clan tartans. Until I see the original source document I will consider it a story.
    Being an inveterate story teller, I collect them and tell them for a wide variety of reasons. I am pretty good at recognizing the difference between story and
    reality, as when my second grade self pointed out the flaws in the Columbus Day poetry reading. Made no difference to my teacher. Most people teach what they are taught without examining; I question pretty much everything. Even what I see happen. That habit has led to an excellent (though certainly
    not total or perfect) education, one which has often differed with scholars of this or that. I have enjoyed the discoveries of primary documents and fake research revealed proving the widely accepted stories to be less than truthful and/ or complete (and my thinking proved correct). Though I was wrong once, in 1957.

    There is much myth and much scholarship around the subjects herein discussed, as has been noted. There are holes in both. Which is why I posted this.
    It merely points out that what we generally accept is not complete. We don't know everything about much of anything. In the court case cited, the
    primary documents had been available and were carefully examined and then discussed in the meeting of a society of men whose experience with such
    was more than extensive. Their point on the calendar puts them much closer to the events, and they had access to the documentation.

    Although, as we know, documentation and research have been and will again be fabricated. This case may be an anomaly in the general development
    as known, and it is worth noting that it occurred during a period when the chief's word was still accepted to be equally valid as the law. That is, there may have been no statute on the books, just judicial backing of a chief's authority.

    I never deny anyone the right to a differing opinion, if we all agreed there would be pretty boring discourse.

  6. #24
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    29th July 19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tripleblessed View Post
    ...
    In the court case cited, the primary documents had been available and were carefully examined and then discussed in the meeting of a society of men whose experience with such was more than extensive. Their point on the calendar puts them much closer to the events, and they had access to the documentation...
    If it is real (i.e. not fictional) I donít think this decision would stand up in a Scottish Court today and, even were it true, it seems unlikely that it would be a binding precedent. I donít think that anyone need follow it particularly if they are outwith Scottish jurisdiction.

    Iíd be interested to know how an expert in Scottish jurisprudence would assess the likelihood of its truth.

  7. #25
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    I suppose it just goes to show that there are differing approaches, yours the approach of the storyteller, mine the approach of the historian. All we can do is acknowledge that we have different approaches, neither inherently more "correct" than the other.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  9. #26
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    14th July 15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Logan View Post
    So you pick up a kilt in clan X tartan. A member of that clan questions you about it at some event. Your answer is...
    My answer would be, for example, "This is a MacPherson tartan and while I'm not part of that family, I think the tartan is beautiful and I'm very happy to wear it."

    Jonathan

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  11. #27
    Join Date
    22nd March 07
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    Quote Originally Posted by jthk View Post
    My answer would be, for example, "This is a MacPherson tartan and while I'm not part of that family, I think the tartan is beautiful and I'm very happy to wear it."

    Jonathan
    Cute... but my point was to do what you want, but know that no one can give you permission, especially on the internet.

    Never take no from someone who can not say yes... caveat; don't except a yes from someone who has no authority to back it.

    The OP asked an honest question, but all anyone on here can do is give their own personal opinion, or a non-authoritive yes. I felt the best answer was to be honest. Do what you want, some people will take issue, some will not, no one on the internet can give permission.

    Your answer was great, but what's the retort to someone who has an issue with it? The world we live in isn't nice on the best of days, it helps the OP, or the general new person to the board to know your answer might just set someone the wrong way.

    No ill intent is meant to you, or anyone else in this thead or otherwise. And as much as I hope no one runs into these types of aggressive folks, it could happen.

    Frank
    Drink to the fame of it -- The Tartan!
    Murdoch Maclean

  12. #28
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    Frank,

    I understood your post without a bother but thanks for the clarification. I was simply issuing my response to that potential question.

    Happy Friday, everybody!
    Jonathan


    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Logan View Post
    Cute... but my point was to do what you want, but know that no one can give you permission, especially on the internet.

    Never take no from someone who can not say yes... caveat; don't except a yes from someone who has no authority to back it.

    The OP asked an honest question, but all anyone on here can do is give their own personal opinion, or a non-authoritive yes. I felt the best answer was to be honest. Do what you want, some people will take issue, some will not, no one on the internet can give permission.

    Your answer was great, but what's the retort to someone who has an issue with it? The world we live in isn't nice on the best of days, it helps the OP, or the general new person to the board to know your answer might just set someone the wrong way.

    No ill intent is meant to you, or anyone else in this thead or otherwise. And as much as I hope no one runs into these types of aggressive folks, it could happen.

    Frank

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jthk View Post
    Frank,

    I understood your post without a bother but thanks for the clarification. I was simply issuing my response to that potential question.

    Happy Friday, everybody!
    Jonathan
    No ill will meant Jonathan. And thanks for the reply.

    Happy Friday, to you as well.

    Frank
    Drink to the fame of it -- The Tartan!
    Murdoch Maclean

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