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  1. #1
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    Clan Tartan Thread Count

    So I have an old thread count excel spread sheet. If anyone wants a copy drop me a post with your email address and it'll be in the mail.

    I was cleaning up some old computer files, and re-discovered it. I've had it since 2008 at least. Click on the photo to get a sample.

    I may have posted this in the past, but considering the file size limits, I may not have. It's 133kb, but too much for excel files to be uploaded.

    Clan Tartan Thread Count.jpg

    Frank
    Last edited by Highland Logan; 22nd October 19 at 02:52 PM.
    Drink to the fame of it -- The Tartan!
    Murdoch Maclean

  2. #2
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    So as to avoid confusion, the pivots (symmetrical patterns) should be identified. There should also be a note to confirm whether the pivot counts are in full or are half-pivot counts. A weaver will always use the latter.

  3. #3
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    One of the largest listings of Tartan designs is "The Scottish Register of Tartan" which is the list maintained by the Govt. of Scotland.

    Registration as a member is free and open to anyone. Once a member you can request the thread count of any of the 10,000 - 11,000 designs.

    And as stated by Figheadair the thread count will be written in a specific format using an accepted shorthand.

    The thread count for the X Marks the Scot Tartan is written -

    /W12, DB64, N6, DB6, N2, DB6, N4, A8, DB2, Y4/

    With the "/" symbol denoting the pivot points of a half Sett.

    ]
    Steve Ashton
    Forum Owner

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ashton View Post
    And as stated by Figheadair the thread count will be written in a specific format using an accepted shorthand.

    The thread count for the X Marks the Scot Tartan is written -

    /W12, DB64, N6, DB6, N2, DB6, N4, A8, DB2, Y4/

    With the "/" symbol denoting the pivot points of a half Sett.
    And if written for a weaving count it would be W/6 DB64 N6 DB6 N8 LB8 DB2 Y/2

  5. #5
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    Thanks for clearing that up Peter, I had often wondered as I have seen thread counts in both formats and did not really understand the difference.
    But now that I can see both formats for the same Tartan it makes sense.
    Steve Ashton
    Forum Owner

  6. #6
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    These formats in more detail?

    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ashton View Post
    And as stated by Figheadair the thread count will be written in a specific format using an accepted shorthand.

    The thread count for the X Marks the Scot Tartan is written -

    /W12, DB64, N6, DB6, N2, DB6, N4, A8, DB2, Y4/

    With the "/" symbol denoting the pivot points of a half Sett.
    And if written for a weaving count it would be W/6 DB64 N6 DB6 N8 LB8 DB2 Y/2
    Could someone clarify a bit? I can see three ways of doing this:


    1. What I think is called full-count at the pivot, meaning the color given is given in its entire width, and is not be repeated even in part after the pivot.
    2. What I think is called half-count at the pivot, meaning the color given is 50% of its width, and the color is repeated upon mirroring to give the full width of it.
    3. What I don't have any idea of the name of, in which the color given would be repeated in its entirety upon mirroring; I have no idea if that's even used by anyone.


    I'm used to seeing thread counts in formats like this:
    LB12 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY4
    to indicate that nothing of the pivot colors is repeated. I.e., after a pivot on the medium-yellow, and another on the light-blue, it would look like:
    LB12 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY4 K4 W48 K24 DN4 K8 DN4 K4 DN48 K4 LB12 K4 DN48 ...

    So, I'm not sure what markup to use to ensure it doesn't get woven wrong. Mostly concerned with how it is represented in the tartan registries so others don't get it woven wrong, since I already have my kilt, done right. :-)
    Last edited by SMcCandlish; 12th March 20 at 03:57 PM. Reason: didn't use the correct word

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMcCandlish View Post
    Could someone clarify a bit? I can see three ways of doing this:


    1. What I think is called full-count at the pivot, meaning the color given is given in its entire width, and is not be repeated even in part after the pivot.
    2. What I think is called half-count at the pivot, meaning the color given is 50% of its width, and the color is repeated upon mirroring to give the full width of it.
    3. What I don't have any idea of the name of, in which the color given would be repeated in its entirety upon mirroring; I have no idea if that's even used by anyone.


    I'm used to seeing thread counts in formats like this:
    LB12 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY4
    to indicate that nothing of the pivot colors is repeated. I.e., after a pivot on the medium-yellow, and another on the light-blue, it would look like:
    LB12 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY4 K4 W48 K24 DN4 K8 DN4 K4 DN48 K4 LB12 K4 DN48 ...

    So, I'm not sure what markup to use to ensure it doesn't get woven wrong. Mostly concerned with how it is represented in the tartan registries so others don't get it woven wrong, since I already have my kilt, done right. :-)
    1. This is the method introduced by D.C. Stewart in his Sett of the Scottish Tartans, 1950. It's completely unnecessary and has lead to all sorts of errors and confusion over the years. Some tartan databases require this format for the pattern to show correctly but why, I have absolutely no idea. It makes no sense.

    2. This method has been around since at least te late 18th century. It is the form that a weaver needs to recreate a given design, it is also the simplest and most economical method of recording a tartan. If it ain't broke.................

    3. This is what's known in the military, or in the British military at least, as a 'cluster'. What an absolute mess! There is nothing to recommend this form which does little beyond over complicate things.

    In a nutshell, stick with No2. Just remember to specify 'Half Pivot counts'.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    In a nutshell, stick with No2. Just remember to specify 'Half Pivot counts'.
    Okay. So, that would correspond to the LB/6 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY/2 markup style, while the full-count one would be /LB12 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY4/ ? As for the third form, I think there's a word that starts with "f" that comes after "cluster".

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMcCandlish View Post
    Okay. So, that would correspond to the LB/6 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY/2 markup style, while the full-count one would be /LB12 K4 DN48 K4 DN4 K8 DN4 K24 W48 K4 MY4/ ? As for the third form, I think there's a word that starts with "f" that comes after "cluster".
    Yes and yes.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    And if written for a weaving count it would be W/6 DB64 N6 DB6 N8 LB8 DB2 Y/2
    So the first and last are both halved? Is that what "half pivot" means?

    If so, I visualize an imaginary line going through the middle of the first and last stripe of the woven tartan, and think of the pattern flipping at those places.

    Does the DC Stewart method move the imaginary line to the outside edge of the first and last stripe, so that those stripes are eliminated when the pattern flips?

    If so I can see how it might cause weavers (and computers) to incorrectly double or halve the outer stripes.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 18th March 20 at 04:07 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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