X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Freedom Kilts website Scotweb websiten Burnetts and Struth website Celtic Croft website
Xmarks advertising information Celtic Corner website Xmarks advertising information Houston Kiltmakers Xmarks advertising information

User Tag List

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 19 of 19
  1. #11
    Join Date
    14th July 15
    Location
    Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    420
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    It's an interesting question, and it makes me want to go through my Victorian photos and see.

    Peter would know, but I've long thought that it looked like the belted plaid had bound edges; no fraying, no fringe.

    There's one early image, I can't remember now, where some artist depicts a garment somewhere between the ancient Irish brat and the Highland breacan-an-fheilidh, with fur trim bound all around the edges. After all, that's what the belted plaid was, the ancient Gaelic "mantle" wrapped round the body. In Ireland fur trim on the mantle was standard, but at some point it disappeared from its Highland descendant.
    If you find that image, I'd be keen to check it out. Thanks for contributing!

  2. #12
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,856
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Peter would know, but I've long thought that it looked like the belted plaid had bound edges; no fraying, no fringe.
    All the surviving pieces I've examined have a turned end, no fringe or fraying.

    There is ongoing discussion and disagreement about what the Grant portraits show. My own view is that it's the artist's attempt to show a selvedge mark, a technique that was commonly used on 18th century plaiding.

    There's one early image, I can't remember now, where some artist depicts a garment somewhere between the ancient Irish brat and the Highland breacan-an-fheilidh, with fur trim bound all around the edges. After all, that's what the belted plaid was, the ancient Gaelic "mantle" wrapped round the body. In Ireland fur trim on the mantle was standard, but at some point it disappeared from its Highland descendant.[/QUOTE]

    One needs to treat these images with a degree of caution. They were often produced from second-hand accounts and/or had a politically disparaging message. I really would question the idea that in Ireland fur trim on the mantle was standard, that's a bit like saying everyone in Scotland wore tartan every day.

  3. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  4. #13
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,856
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This picture of two of the Balmoral Ghillies taken in 1858 is amongst the earliest to show Highland Dress. The kilt on the left definitely looks to have a fringe, possible the other one too. If so, this pushes back the date of the introduction of the style by some 50 years.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Donald Stewart & Charles Duncan keepers, Balmoral Oct 1858 - detail.jpg 
Views:	33 
Size:	458.1 KB 
ID:	38440

    As the original Balmoral tartan was woven with a three-ply yarn to reflect the marl of the local granite, I wonder if this fringe was an inovative idea to show off the mixed yarns in a sudo raw edge?

  5. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  6. #14
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    8,425
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If the Grant swordsman's plaid has contrasting selvedge, how can it look the same around all the edges?

    In any case, I was looking through numerous Victorian photos and in most I can't tell anything about the edge of the front apron.

    However this one just might have fringe

    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  7. The Following User Says 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  8. #15
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,856
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    If the Grant swordsman's plaid has contrasting selvedge, how can it look the same around all the edges?
    It's possible to weave a selvedge mark at the ends too but it's technically challenging and only something a very experienced weaver could do. I've found three historical examples and recreated the techqiue once.

    http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/Two...ish_County.pdf

    http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/A_C...buie_Plaid.pdf

  9. The Following 3 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  10. #16
    Join Date
    15th January 19
    Location
    Lake Zurich, Illinois
    Posts
    118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    This picture of two of the Balmoral Ghillies taken in 1858 is amongst the earliest to show Highland Dress. The kilt on the left definitely looks to have a fringe, possible the other one too. If so, this pushes back the date of the introduction of the style by some 50 years.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Donald Stewart & Charles Duncan keepers, Balmoral Oct 1858 - detail.jpg 
Views:	33 
Size:	458.1 KB 
ID:	38440
    I must disagree, I cannot see apron fringe on either of your two ghillies, nor on the MacMahon portrait. It may be the 160 year old photography, or my phone.
    The apron sides are just too crisp and square to be fringe, which one would expect to be less uniform and perfect. Same with the MacMahon portrait, the lower corners are hard angled and solid.

  11. The Following User Says 'Aye' to KnittedReenactor For This Useful Post:


  12. #17
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,856
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KnittedReenactor View Post
    I must disagree, I cannot see apron fringe on either of your two ghillies, nor on the MacMahon portrait. It may be the 160 year old photography, or my phone.
    The apron sides are just too crisp and square to be fringe, which one would expect to be less uniform and perfect. Same with the MacMahon portrait, the lower corners are hard angled and solid.
    We may never know for certain but it certainly looks less crisp on the higher res version that the kilt on the right. I'd be quite happy t be proved wrong as that would move the date to the right to c1885.

  13. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  14. #18
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    8,425
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    It's possible to weave a selvedge mark at the ends too but it's technically challenging and only something a very experienced weaver could do. I've found three historical examples and recreated the techqiue once.

    http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/Two...ish_County.pdf

    http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/A_C...buie_Plaid.pdf
    Wow those Antigonish plaids are beautiful!

    Still, when I look at the Grant swordsman painting it looks to me like binding. There seems to be thickness to it, and a roundness to the edge, rather than a woven selvedge, and it's the same width that binding usually is.

    But it could be a case of the artist being familiar with bound edges on clothes (remember that portrait artists paint clothes all the time) so interpreted a contrasting threads at the borders as binding.

    One thing to keep in mind about portraits is that they were extremely expensive, the domain of the wealthy, and the clients were keenly aware of their carefully selected and extremely expensive clothes and would expect the artist to paint them accurately. With the accompanying portrait (the piper) the artist spent a large amount of time painting each of the numerous rosettes on the piper's coat. Time is money, and the artist wouldn't have spent all that time painting those details if the client didn't expect it/hadn't insisted on it.

    In other words a painted portrait is unlike a photograph in that the sitter (or in this case the sitter's employer) has input on how the image comes out. It's why on so many 16th and 17th century portraits the artist has lavished more time on the clothes than on the anatomy.

    So, I'm hesitant to dismiss how clothes are depicted in pre-modern oil portraits.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  15. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  16. #19
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,856
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Still, when I look at the Grant swordsman painting it looks to me like binding. There seems to be thickness to it, and a roundness to the edge, rather than a woven selvedge, and it's the same width that binding usually is.

    But it could be a case of the artist being familiar with bound edges on clothes (remember that portrait artists paint clothes all the time) so interpreted a contrasting threads at the borders as binding.
    I've had this discussion before. For me, it makes no sense whatsoever to produce cloth/a garment that has a versatile handle due to the structure of the weave and then constrain that by adding a binding of a different material that has less give. It just seems an unnecessary constraint.

    There are plenty of examples of selvedge marks and selvedge patterns on historical specimens, Ive only come across one with any binding discussed here and that Im feel certain was added later when the surviving piece of the plaid was repurposed.

  17. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0