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HLI Amalgamation
YouTube threw this story at me yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejKzgyLLJHM
I don't know who won the Kilt v. Trews battle. It's likely it happened again as more amalgamation happened. My question really lies in an observation in the film.
Several years ago, I'd read a story about a WWII reenactor in England. He'd mentioned that he'd changed from British to American units because of the more "relaxed" marching style. My guess was he was addressing what I'd call arm swing or lack thereof in the American style.
I noticed that the HLI are not going as high as the YT videos of current units show. It's much lower and similar to an American style. I even remember a video about a British Army disciplinary barracks where the squaddie was reminded the get his armswing to shoulder height. Has the British style changed over the years or did the HLI have different regimental style? I know the Legion has a different style/pace from the rest of the French military.
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Light Infantry and Rifles drill differs from that of other units, and I assume that this applied to the HLI. Arms are only swung waist belt high and the marching pace is 140 paces per minute, in quick time, rather than the standard 116.
I couldn't find any video of the HLI on parade but this clip shows the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) marching in quick time from about the 12.05 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fSSoklfDyo
Last edited by Bruce Scott; 28th May 20 at 07:54 PM.
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The Following User Says 'Aye' to Bruce Scott For This Useful Post:
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remember ASSAYE
As a former member of the R.H.F. which was the amalgamation of HLI and RSF the writer is correct in stating that Light Infantry march at a different pace than most other Regiments, especially when marching to the Pipes & Drums, which is a slower pace.
Aye Yours.
VINCERE-VEL-MORI
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Originally Posted by Brian Rose
I don't know who won the Kilt v. Trews battle. It's likely it happened again as more amalgamation happened.
In 1959 trews won. But the HLI had only became kilted in 1948 (both antecedent regiments had been de-kilted in 1809).
In 1881 kilts were big winners, but in 1809 big losers.
Because in 1809 six kilted Highland regiments (the 71st, 72nd, 73rd, 74th, 75th, and 91st) were de-kilted and put into the ordinary English/Lowland Scottish uniform (which at that time were the same, no tartan trousers etc). That left only five kilted Highland regiments (the 42nd, 78th, 79th, 92nd, and 93rd).
But in 1881 most British infantry regiments were amalgamated in pairs.
With the Highland regiments a kilted regiment was paired with non-kilted regiment, and the uniform of the kilted regiment was adopted for the entire new two-battalion regiment, regardless of which regiment was senior. Kilts, not seniority, won the day.
The 1881 amalgamations:
42nd + 73rd = The Black Watch (42nd kit)
71st + 74th = HLI (both de-kilted in 1809, continued non-kilted due to their Light Infantry status, re-kilted 1948)
72nd + 78th = The Seaforth Highlanders (78th kit)
75th + 92nd = The Gordon Highlanders (92nd kit)
91st + 93rd = The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (93rd kit)
The 79th did not amalgamate and became The Cameron Highlanders.
With the creation of The Royal Regiment Of Scotland, kilts had their ultimate victory, being adopted by Lowland and Highland soldiers alike.
Originally Posted by Brian Rose
...the arm swing or lack thereof in the American style.
Has the British style changed over the years...
I noticed a similar thing when watching this video. It shows the 51st Highland Division's Victory Parade in Germany in 1945. These are experienced combat soldiers, needless to say, and they are not doing what we think of as a "British" arm swing, but something closer to the American style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcA4ffFNiAk
It would be interesting to hear from a WWII veteran about this, or watch videos from various periods to see when the "British" style was used and when the "American" style was used. All these years later, we may never know the "why".
Another thing to note is the full beards worn by some of the pipers. I had a guy lecture me about beards in WWII
BTW the pipe band I play in now marches to that same tune, The Atholl and Breadalbane Gathering. But we play it at modern competition speed, much slower than you hear in that film.
Last edited by OC Richard; 29th May 20 at 01:23 PM.
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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The Following User Says 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:
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11th July 20, 05:44 PM
#5
@OC Richard
The modern chest high arm swinging we associate with the British Army today came about I would estimate between 1955-1960. If you look at the various Pathe King's/Queen's Birthday Parades from the 1920's till 1955 you'll note they are swing their arms in a much more lower style regardless Guards or not, you'll see it was all across the board. See this clip of the Northumberland Fusiliers in 1931 for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvgH9tQrE80
Of of the Depot Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, Inverness when trooping the colour of the 9th Sudanese Regiment in 1936:
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/t...mrades-in-arms
Hope this helps.
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13th July 20, 05:34 PM
#6
One of the things that I appreciate about this forum is the depth of knowledge and experience that appears here. I half expected a retired RSM to weigh in on this topic. The last two film clips were interesting that there was no arm swing at "slow march". The 1931 clip has a couple of items of interest. One is the hand-cranked camera on the left side of the parade ground. The other is the sound quality- better than I'd expect for the early days of motion picture sound. The technology is really only 3-4 years old at the time. I'd suspect that the original has been cleaned up and rerecorded or the sound track was added later.
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20th July 20, 03:57 PM
#7
Thanks Agincourt!
Those clips are great.
I've spent quite a bit of time- never enough- looking through those old Pathe films. I'm continually surprised.
One thing is hearing accents I wouldn't have expected. It makes you realise that the way we talk now must have evolved relatively recently.
The drill of those soldiers in the 1930s is superb! Long-serving professional soldiers, I expect.
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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