X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Freedom Kilts website Scotweb websiten Burnetts and Struth website Celtic Croft website
Xmarks advertising information Celtic Corner website Xmarks advertising information Houston Kiltmakers Xmarks advertising information

User Tag List

Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. #1
    Join Date
    16th July 19
    Location
    Central Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    97
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    17th and 18th Century reproduction sporrans

    Can some one provide a link for a historically accurate 17/18th century Sporran such as in the attached thread?
    Have looked on Etsy and googled West Historic Sales, as well as a general google search with no joy.

    http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...porrans-95959/

    Thanks much

    Jacques
    This space for rent.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    22nd March 07
    Location
    In Doors
    Posts
    847
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
    Can some one provide a link for a historically accurate 17/18th century Sporran such as in the attached thread?
    Have looked on Etsy and googled West Historic Sales, as well as a general google search with no joy.

    http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...porrans-95959/

    Thanks much

    Jacques
    https://www.landmhighland.ca/product...ather-sporran/

    https://www.kilts-n-stuff.com/shop/c...eiver-sporran/

    https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/3985...98590325&sca=1

    https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/6896...ery-1-14&col=1

    https://www.etsy.com/market/sporran


    Not the same, but in the style of.
    Last edited by Highland Logan; 15th June 20 at 03:04 PM.
    Drink to the fame of it -- The Tartan!
    Murdoch Maclean

  3. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Highland Logan For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    8,517
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I would first ask the question "how much do we know about what 17th century sporrans looked like?"

    From the get-go we would have to dismiss sporrans in museums, unless they have a date engraved on them.

    There are loads of old-looking sporrans in museums, but how many have air-tight provenance? I know with pipes you have legends affixed to many old sets but not much in the way of actual provenance unless a set is stamped with the mark of a known maker or engraved with a date (as is the case with presentation sets).

    The main source of knowledge that comes with established dates is iconography, generally portraits. Even if a portrait isn't dated we often know the subject's dates.

    What portraits showing sporrans can be firmly dated to the 17th century? The earliest clear image of Highland Dress, a 1631 engraving showing four Highland soldiers, doesn't show any sporrans. Ditto engravings from 1643 and 1661.

    The earliest clear detailed colour image of Highland Dress is a full length portrait said to have been painted around 1660. I'm looking at it and I can't make out a sporran. (Sorry this image is so small!)



    That's it for the 17th century as far as I know. Which means there can be no such thing as a "reproduction 17th century sporran".

    With the 18th century we have a large number of images.

    Here's Alastair Grant Mor, 1714. His sporran, probably deerskin, can be seen fairly well.



    Next in Lord Duffus, who died in 1734. His sporran, probably also deerskin, is also clearly visible.



    Now leaping ahead to 1770 with Lord MacDonald we see the sporran has changed quite a bit. Now it's acquired a purse-like brass top. I believe it's made of sealskin.



    With Hugh Montgomerie we see an even more elaborate sealskin sporran, with silver top and rows of tassels.

    The original signed and dated portrait, 1780, hangs in the Los Angeles County Museum Of Art. The one owned by the National Museums Scotland is an unsigned, undated copy.

    Last edited by OC Richard; 16th June 20 at 09:59 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  5. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    8,517
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    About old sporrans in museums, this one looks very much like the Alastair Grant sporran.

    Notice the interwoven sort of basketweave border to the flap, I think I can see that in the painting.



    This one to me looks remarkably like the one in the Lord MacDonald painting. l can't make out whether this is worn sealskin, or deerskin or something else.



    If I wanted to put together an 18th century costume I would be guided by 18th century paintings and the surviving sporrans that match what is seen in the paintings.

    I missed seeing that Etsy maker, that reproduction looked fantastic.

    Certainly dark shiny leathers won't do.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 16th June 20 at 10:18 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  7. The Following User Says 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,878
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    I would first ask the question "how much do we know about what 17th century sporrans looked like?"

    From the get-go we would have to dismiss sporrans in museums, unless they have a date engraved on them.

    The earliest clear detailed colour image of Highland Dress is a full length portrait said to have been painted around 1660. I'm looking at it and I can't make out a sporran. (Sorry this image is so small!)
    You're right, there is no sporran shown. It was painted c1680, not 1660.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lord Mungo Murray [Am Morair Mungo Moireach] c1680.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	198.1 KB 
ID:	38883

    That's it for the 17th century as far as I know. Which means there can be no such thing as a "reproduction 17th century sporran".
    It's a point well made. That said, we can assume that the sporrans in portaits and pictures before c1720 weren't suddenly invented and that they probably represent sytles that were around in the late 17th century.

  9. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  10. #6
    Join Date
    26th September 05
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    578
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OP, to answer your question about West Historical Sales, they have relocated to Portugal. Will be starting back up soon.

    As Etsy and other online platforms are pushing "Free Shipping" for US sellers, they had to delete their store totally, otherwise Etsy would be requiring them to ship from Portugal to the US for free.

    They will be back up and running soon.

    As to the sporrans they produce, they are copied off of 3 "18th Century" non cantled sporrans that survive in museum collections. All 3 share the same pattern, especially in how the flap and hanger strap are one piece of leather doubled and sewn, the 3 leather knots to close and the gathered bag. These sporrans, when copied in the exact size caused all kinds of hate and discontent among reenactors, as they couldnt fit a modern wallet an Ipad in the sporran. I kept a small bag of coins and a my flint and steel kit and the keys to my Tea Caddy and Wiskey canteen and it works perfectly.

    Luke.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0