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  1. #1
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    Thomson Camel Baggage

    I was looking at possibly getting a Thomson Camel kilt because I like the tartan and colors. However, upon looking into it a little bit more, it seems it's considered a knockoff of a well-known brand (Burberry) which I had never heard of before. It seems this has (or had) some negative connotations associated with it. I'd never heard of Burberry and know pretty much nothing about them, and I just like the way that Thomson Camel looks and could see it going well with other clothing I have. So my question is this: how bad is the baggage associated with Thomson Camel and/or Burberry?

  2. #2
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    Burberry is actually a long established (mid-19th C) UK fashion brand and usually seen as luxury or relatively high class. It rose to prominence when it developed the fabric gaberdine and used to specialise in raincoats and outwear - before expanding into general fashion. The Burberry "nova check" is a registered trademark and similar to Thompson Camel. They began using it about 100 years ago as the lining for their raincoats.

    Burberry Nova Check:



    Thompson Camel:



    The baggage really comes from the early noughties when Burberry went a bit overboard with the branding around their nova check, combined with their products becoming generally more affordable and the use of more influential brand ambassadors - unfortunately this also coincided with the market being flooded with cheap copycats and counterfeits. At this time the brand became associated with football (soccer) hooligans and chavs (a UK term meaning a young person of a type characterized by brash and loutish behaviour and usually of low social status) - so much so that many venues even banned the wearing of "Burberry check" garments.

    That said I doubt many hooligans or chavs would sport a kilt.

    Since then Burberry has pulled back from the mass-market and re-invented itself as a more exclusive and aspirational brand - and radically reduced the way in which they use the nova check. They have also taken also taken radical steps to stamp out counterfeit products (I went to an IP seminar some years ago where their head of brand protection was one of the key speakers) - although of course some still slip through the net.

    I don't think the brand is a "tarnished" as it once was and the negative connotations appear to have been left behind. If you like the Thompson tartan go for it - you can always spin a yarn if anyone mistakes it for Burberry...

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  4. #3
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    It’s just not for me.

    Descendant of the Gillises and MacDonalds of North Morar.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichiganKyle View Post
    So my question is this: how bad is the baggage associated with Thomson Camel and/or Burberry?
    I'm not sure how bad, but maybe not as bad as it once was; this is the largest piece I found.


    https://atasteofkentucky.com/wp-cont.../05/10269B.jpg

  6. #5
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    "Between 2001 and 2005, Burberry became associated with "chav" and football hooligan culture. This change in the brand reputation was attributed to lower priced products, the proliferation of counterfeit goods adopting Burberry's trademark check pattern, and adoption by celebrities prominently identified with "chav"* culture. The association with football hooliganism led to the wearing of Burberry check garments being banned at some venues. GUS divested its remaining interest in Burberry in December 2005. Burberry Group plc was initially floated on the London Stock Exchange in July 2002. In 2005, Sanyo-shokai was the Burberry ready-to-wear licence holder in Japan with retail value of €435 million.

    In 2006, Rose Marie Bravo, who as chief executive had led Burberry to mass market success through licensing, decided to retire. She was replaced by another American, Angela Ahrendts, who joined from Liz Claiborne in January 2006, and took up the position of CEO on 1 July 2006. Ahrendts and Bailey successfully turned around the then chav-like reputation that the brand had acquired at the end of Bravo's tenure and cheapening effect of the brand's omnipresence, by removing the brand's check-pattern from all but 10% of the company's products."

    From:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burberry

    *chav, n. Brit. slang (derogatory). In the United Kingdom (originally the south of England): a young person of a type characterized by brash and loutish behaviour and the wearing of designer-style clothes (esp. sportswear); usually with connotations of a low social status.

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  8. #6
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    Burberry's most famous product was the original trench coat from WWI.

    The Thomson camel tartan is attractive and the colors go well with a wide variety of clothing. If you like it, don't worry about the Burberry connection. Just wear it with pride.

    Andrew

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  10. #7
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    What I wonder is, the chicken or the egg?

    Being that the two patterns are too alike to admit pure coincidence, I can imagine one of these two scenarios:

    1) Burberry created their plaid, it became popular, and a weaver concocted "Camel Thompson" to sell more tartan.

    2) Camel Thompson already existed and was spotted by some Burberry executive who instructed their design department to create a comp for use in their clothing.

    If I had to bet, I'd bet on #1. For one thing that's a not uncommon process with tartans.

    Quite a few years ago a fad for grey tartans appeared seemingly out of nowhere, and existing tartans were modified to piggyback onto the fad: Grey Douglas, Grey Stewart, Grey Watch, etc.

    And by the way there's Camel Stewart too, suggesting that at some point there was a "camel" fad, possibly in imitation of the popular Burberry plaid.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  11. #8
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    Burberry might have stylized the MacLeod of Lewis for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    What I wonder is, the chicken or the egg?

    Being that the two patterns are too alike to admit pure coincidence, I can imagine one of these two scenarios:

    1) Burberry created their plaid, it became popular, and a weaver concocted "Camel Thompson" to sell more tartan.

    2) Camel Thompson already existed and was spotted by some Burberry executive who instructed their design department to create a comp for use in their clothing.

    If I had to bet, I'd bet on #1. For one thing that's a not uncommon process with tartans.

    Quite a few years ago a fad for grey tartans appeared seemingly out of nowhere, and existing tartans were modified to piggyback onto the fad: Grey Douglas, Grey Stewart, Grey Watch, etc.

    And by the way there's Camel Stewart too, suggesting that at some point there was a "camel" fad, possibly in imitation of the popular Burberry plaid.


    Apart from the tonal values and the white stripes in place of the yellow ones, and of course the line widths in the MacLeod of Lewis ...There is an awful lot of similarity there.

  12. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    What I wonder is, the chicken or the egg?
    Your first guess looks most likely.

    According to the Scottish Registry of Tartans there are numerous derivatives of "Burberry" with some being designated as counterfeit and references to similarities to Burberry (and some on/off challenges over the years) in the notes of other similar tartans.

    These are the details for Burberry (Genuine):

    STA ref: 1239
    STWR ref: 1239
    Designer: Unknown
    Tartan date: 01/01/1920
    Registration date: Not Specified
    Category: Corporate
    Restrictions:
    Registration notes: The first use of the Burberry design was said to have been by an Italian luggage manufacturer (John Bain reported that this came from David Doig - a well known and very knowledgeable man from Scotch House in London.) It has become so much part of the Burberry image that it has been trademarked and can now be regarded as a Corporate tartan. The basic sett remains the same even with official Burberry colour changes. Scottish Tartans Society thread count slightly different K24, W24, K24, LT84, R8. Sindex notes give 1984 as the date.

    These are the details for Thomson Camel:

    STA ref: 2421
    STWR ref: 2421
    Designer: Thompson, J.C. 'Scotty'
    Tartan date: 01/01/1990
    Registration date: This tartan was recorded prior to the launch of The Scottish Register of Tartans.
    Category: Fashion
    Restrictions:
    Registration notes: As with Thomson Camel #5129 (original Scottish Tartans Authority reference), this is thought to have been designed about 40 years ago and has often been linked to an American called J.C. Thompson. The reason for that is obvious when 'Thomson's Fancy' is viewed - it just has azure in place of the white shown here. Whilst this Thomson Camel here has the red stripe in the same position as Burberry, the white stripes are much further apart and have a white line between them. Close up, there is no problem in distinguishing between this and the genuine Burberry. Lochcarron substitutes blue for the two narrow black lines. Lochcarron swatch. Another opinion suggests that this was designed by Laird Portch. The late Scotty was one of north America's leading experts on tartan and was a prolific author, his most popular book being 'So you're going to wear the kilt?' He also co-authored 'Scotland's Forged Tartans' with the father of modern tartan research, the late D.C. Stewart.

  13. #10
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    One way or another, I like Thomson Camel better than Burberry Check - I find it more visually interesting. And I really couldn't care less about Burberry, especially considering I hadn't even heard of them before looking into Thomson Camel. But I don't want to have people look at it and think I'm trying to associate with them when I'm not, particularly if it's well-known enough and has bad enough connotations to make a difference.

    I just like the way Thomson Camel looks.

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