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9th February 21, 02:36 PM
#21
Originally Posted by KennethSime
Hah! Pictures? Isn't that what Facebook is for? :-)
.............., but the P.C. kit will take some time, I think - better to buy quality that'll last than to throw something together quickly.
Very wise.
" Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.
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9th February 21, 03:11 PM
#22
Originally Posted by KennethSime
Hah! Pictures? Isn't that what Facebook is for? :-)
I think I'm almost there for smart daywear, but the P.C. kit will take some time, I think - better to buy quality that'll last than to throw something together quickly.
I am in total agreement with you!
"Touch not the cat bot a glove."
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9th February 21, 05:07 PM
#23
Originally Posted by KennethSime
Hah! Pictures? Isn't that what Facebook is for? :-)
I think I'm almost there for smart daywear, but the P.C. kit will take some time, I think - better to buy quality that'll last than to throw something together quickly.
Fakebook? XMarks always has said, "No pictures? Then it didn't happen!"
Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair.
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10th February 21, 09:48 AM
#24
To me, the key items you will need with the Prince Charlie are:
1. formal shirt. Wing or turn-down collar are equally acceptable. Mine is from Jos. A. Bank. Uniform shops, which sell stuff for people who wear work uniforms, are a good affordable source of tux shirts and studs in very standard designs, although you may find something more stylish if you search your local vintage and thrift shops.
2. Black bow tie. The kind you tie yourself. These are easy to find anywhere that formal wear is sold. Tying a bow tie is simple--it is actually just like tying your shoes, except you do it around your neck. A few minute's practice and you will have the skill for life. I agree that you should avoid straight ties and especially abhor the "rouche" tie.
3. Nice black dress shoes. Your cap-toes should be fine. I have a pair of patent leather oxfords I inherited from my father's tuxedo outfit which work fine. Someday I will find buckle shoes, but I haven't yet.
4. Evening sporran. Mine is bunny fur in white, from Stillwater kilts. It was a bargain and has served me well. Someday I would like to get a quality horsehair sporran, but have not gotten around to it yet. Evening sporrans seem to be readily available on eBay. Some will suggest you should use a chain for evening wear, but I think a sporran strap is fine.
5. Some nice kilt hose. I prefer argyle or diced socks for formal wear, but most observers will be fine with solid colors. Please avoid white, as it looks like a rental.
Please avoid wearing a belt (especially one with a giant buckle) under your vest, as it will definitely hang below and mess up your look.
If you have one, a pocket watch looks really great with in your vest.
All that said, you will look so much smarter than all the men in tuxedos at most black tie events, that no one will notice if you do make a "mistake" in any detail of your outfit. At a Burns Supper, or other Highland event, your companions will notice, but will hopefully be polite about any lapses.
Wear it with pride and enjoy.
Andrew
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10th February 21, 09:58 AM
#25
Originally Posted by kingandrew
All that said, you will look so much smarter than all the men in tuxedos at most black tie events, that no one will notice if you do make a "mistake" in any detail of your outfit. At a Burns Supper, or other Highland event, your companions will notice, but will hopefully be polite about any lapses.
Wear it with pride and enjoy.
Andrew
Roger on all accounts, thanks very much for your advice Andrew.
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11th February 21, 08:40 AM
#26
Originally Posted by ktk1961
I noticed that all six of these men are wearing a version of Ghillie Brogues (even the gent with the buckles) with the long laces tied up the lower leg. Personally, I like what they add to a formal outfit...
It's strange, Ghillie Brogues. Where did they come from? How did they evolve? Where do they fit in Highland Dress?
I don't know any of these things, despite all the looking around I've done.
By far the largest collection of Victorian full-colour images of men in Highland Dress is The Highlanders Of Scotland, showing over 50 men in the late 1860s.
A dozen men are wearing Ghillies, and all but one pair are tan rough-out leather. The implication is that the Ghillies were thought of at that time as rustic rural shoes.
There is one pair of black Ghillies, and they have silver buckles.
Victorian photographs show us that black Ghillies both with and without buckles were not uncommon. And then, as now, they're more likely to be worn by pipers than by non-pipers. (By the way Ghillies have always been a purely civilian style and not worn in the military.)
By the 1930s Ghillies had moved indoors and become a standard Evening Dress shoe, shiny black with silver buckles.
Today we associate Ghillies with civilian pipers and pipe bands, but this is a recent development. As late as the 1960s wearing Ghillies in pipe bands was unheard of. Civilian pipe bands wore either military-style Full Dress which included spats, or civilian Evening Dress which included full tartan hose and buckled brogues.
As far as I can tell it was top-level Canadian pipe bands that introduced Ghillies, in the 1970s. They were worn with the heavy hand-knit offwhite Arran hose, which nicely showed off the laces. Within a decade the entire civilian pipe band world had ditched the uncomfortable and expensive Full Dress and Evening Dress and gone to the new pipe band look of black Ghillies, Arran hose, and black Argyll jackets.
Coinciding with the pipe band world embracing Ghillies was the rise of the Kilt Hire Industry, which likewise jumped on the offwhite hose + black Ghillies as a cheaper alternative to full tartan hose and buckled brogues.
I did some research and I discovered that both the UK Kilt Hire industry and the US formal wear industry didn't take off until the 1970s. I believe that Kilt Hire had a tremendous impact on Highland Dress, popularising the now-familiar Prince Charlie + black Ghillies + offwhite hose + black leather sporran look. (Prior to 1970 leather sporrans were strictly Day Dress and were brown.)
So that's the story as far as I know it.
To myself Evening Dress has always called for, and still calls for, an Evening sporran, full tartan or diced hose, and buckled shoes. I've not embraced the 1970s Kilt Hire makeover of Highland Dress as being "traditional Highland Dress" and I don't think I'm alone in that.
That being said, if I were to wear selfcoloured/solid/plain hose with Evening Dress I wouldn't wear white or offwhite. I'd go with a darker colour.
Time for pretty pictures!
Roughout tan Ghillies in the 1860s, by MacLeay
A rare photo of rough tan ghillies, part of Royal fancy dress
Black Ghillies in Victorian times, in Oban
Evening Dress shoe options in a 1936 catalogue
The City Of Dundee Pipe Band in the 1950s showing the typical civilian pipe band use of Evening Dress; note the buckled shoes
A Grade One Canadian pipe band in 1979 showing the nascent ghillies + Arran hose + black Argyll piper thing.
A California pipe band in 1979, note that only one piper is wearing Ghillies
Last edited by OC Richard; 11th February 21 at 09:13 AM.
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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11th February 21, 04:50 PM
#27
OC Richard, this is a photo of my old pipe instructor Ron Rollo who sadly passed away in 2011, this photo was taken in 1971 at the Maxville Highland games the band was well known here named Caber Feidh. Notice the Argyll hose
Another photo showing the Buckle Brogues and how cool this band was
Myself and Ron at the Fergus Games about 10 years or so ago
Here is his obituary
https://www.pipesdrums.com/article/ron-rollo-1937-2011/
Last edited by McMurdo; 11th February 21 at 05:01 PM.
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14th February 21, 03:46 PM
#28
i would have to see what color is the jacket is and what is the kilt you are paring it with before i suggest anything
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15th February 21, 10:41 AM
#29
Originally Posted by OC Richard
I did some research and I discovered that both the UK Kilt Hire industry and the US formal wear industry didn't take off until the 1970s. I believe that Kilt Hire had a tremendous impact on Highland Dress, popularising the now-familiar Prince Charlie + black Ghillies + offwhite hose + black leather sporran look. (Prior to 1970 leather sporrans were strictly Day Dress and were brown)...
To myself Evening Dress has always called for, and still calls for, an Evening sporran, full tartan or diced hose, and buckled shoes. I've not embraced the 1970s Kilt Hire makeover of Highland Dress as being "traditional Highland Dress" and I don't think I'm alone in that.
Richard, would you mind indulging me a bit here?
You mentioned the evening sporran a bit in your first response here, and I wonder if I can pick you brain a bit. Is there anything you'd consider an evening sporran which doesn't necessarily contain fur, or a pelt of some kind? I know there are faux-fur options out there, but personally I'd prefer to stay away from even those. If the answer is no, that's ok, and I'm ready to accept that I may just not blend with THCD in this case.
Specifically, I've been looking at a leather dress sporran such as this or that form USA Kilts, and I'm currently bidding on a vintage version of this sporran which I'm hoping might do ok as a dress sporran, and offer a bit of a victorian aesthetic, similar to one Glen posted earlier in the thread (although a bit louder I think).
Last edited by KennethSime; 15th February 21 at 10:42 AM.
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23rd February 21, 02:34 PM
#30
Ok folks, here's the first picture of the kit in progress. Pardon the link - I tried to post here on the forum, but it I couldn't figure out how to resize appropriately.
Featured are the vintage $50 P.C., my new RRS Kilt (which rises quite high), and a vintage 70s-era Horsehair sporran that I picked up for about $50 also.
Can I get some feedback on the sporran? Does it pass for evening wear?
I rather like the look, though I think I should pickup so mane & tail conditioner. I think it's hanging a bit low, causing a bit of a bunching effect on the kilt - wish I'd caught that before changing.
From here, I'll need to pickup a more appropriate shirt and a bowtie, and of course the black oxfords (I have a pair in brown, and will pickup the black ones soon). At that point, I think I'll be passable.
Last edited by KennethSime; 23rd February 21 at 02:37 PM.
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