I picked up a second-hand P.C. What else do I need to buy to make the outfit work?

**KennethSime** · 5th February 21, 09:50 PM

I got lucky this weekend, and ended up with a Prince Charlie in my size for $56 total. A minor victory here - I first offered $50, which was denied, and ended up winning the auction for just $36. An additional $20 in fees and shipping brought it to my door today. :-)

The garment has a made in Scotland label (the only label), and the material feels nice enough, but the buttons are rather cheap (seem to be chromed plastic or maybe pewter).

So, here's the deal: I live in California. Even after COVID, I will likely wear this jacket once per year or less - I've really only had one occasion to wear a tux so far in my life, and don't foresee many more when you get right down to it. There's a reason I jumped on the $50 eBay find, rather than ordering new from Scotland. ;-) Still, I'd like to put together the rest of the outfit, ideally with pieces that may work in other use cases as well. Further, I'd like to compromise in a few areas, without looking plain silly. I wonder which of these compromises you think I could get away with, and what might be too far?

Shirt. I'll need a wing-collar tux shirt, not just a regular poplin dress shirt, correct?
Do I need a bowtie? Can I wear a regular wool tie with a 3-button waistcoat? How about a 5-button? I'm not a fan of the rouche tie, but I've never tried a bow tie.
Sporran. I really don't want to buy a fur sporran, and the faux fur sporrans just look cheap to me. USA Kilts offers a few leather dress sporrans, and I think I'd be ok with a victorian-style horsehair sporran. What I'd prefer to do is a hunting sporran, but I don't think these are "classy" enough. Is that right? If you weren't going to go for a fur or sealskin sporran, what would you go for?
Shoes. I have particular wide feet (like 5E), and even "wide" fitting grille brogues are a no-go for me. I could get custom shoes made, but would rather not spend $500 on those right now. I have found a pair black of cap-toe oxfords that fit comfortably without looking like clown shoes, but are oxfords just not classy enough for a P.C.?
Hose. Can I just wear some nice HoE lewis hose? I think diced hose or argyll hose are very nice, but I don't think I'll be spending $200 on them anytime soon.

Finally, a jacket fit question. This is only the second formal jacket I've purchased, and it seems to fit quite well - better perhaps than my tweed braemar. The P.C. is a 44L, the tweed is a 46L. I measure 44", and I was under the impression that most Americans should order 1 size up when it came to Scottish-made kilt jackets. However, this one fits so well I'm thinking I might jump on one of the second-hand 44L tweeds that are listed at ministry of tartan - 44L is a much more common size. What do you think? Do you usually need "one size up," or do you order your jackets as-measured?

Again, thank you for humoring me. I'm new to formal clothing period, and pretty new to kilts as well. I appreciate any advice you might have to offer.

**McMurdo** · 5th February 21, 11:01 PM

This was the first PC I bought, I have a wing tip tux shirt, a clip on bow tie, the sporran is a hunting style with the chrome top the hose were what I got from the kilt hire place the shoes were what I had the time, the "sgian dubh" was a $4 Ebay buy

This would be fine for any number of events, however it does look like every other outfit in the room.

After wearing the kilt for some years I've changed my approach to the PC this is my current rig a lay down collar tuxedo shirt from Brooks Brothers with a monogram, a self tie bow tie, the sporran is a horsehair from 1911, the hose are Argyll made for the tartan I designed, the shoes are buckle brogues with antique silver buckles, the sgian dubh is a family heirloom with silver fittings and a cairngorm. I prefer this outfit much more than the first one

Having said all that if I have my choice I'd rather wear my velvet doublet also from 1911, everything else is the same as for the second outfit, but I know with certainty that I'll be the only one in the room wearing this.

**Micrographia** · 6th February 21, 03:22 AM

Always fun to get a good Ebay score

. My 2 cents...

- a tux shirt is good but a wing collar isn't needed, though if you want one go for it. I have a marcella shirt with a turn down collar that gets used with PC or evening suit and a pleated front with a wing collar if I'm feeling particularly formal in a PC (not often).
- a self-tie black bow tie is best especially with a wing collar. I wouldn't wear a regular tie with a PC or a tux shirt full stop, or a 5 button waistcoat with a PC. Both look strange to me and I don't think the PC is cut for them. I'm with you on not being keen on the ruche cravat look.
- anything other than a silver metal cantle and fur or hair sporran looks odd to me with a PC, though I know opinions vary, especially with regards to hunting sporrans. In general I prefer not to wear something that is acceptable daywear as formal evening wear (aside from black brogues and coloured hose) and a hunting sporran looks like a fancy day sporran to me

. I might wear a horsehair with my PC or Montrose if the event included dancing

- you don't need ghillie brogues. Your Oxfords will work well, though personally I'd keep an eye open for a pair of black Oxford brogues for day and evening wear double duty (also useful when you're not in Highland dress).
- solid coloured hose of decent quality will be fine.

As already noted, you'll be wanting a formal sgian. Other details could include shirt studs and cufflinks. I'm UK based so can't comment on US jacket sizing

. In general though fits can vary with cut and maker so buying without trying it on will always be chancy.

Best regards, EEM.

**Jock Scot** · 6th February 21, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Micrographia

Always fun to get a good Ebay score

. My 2 cents...

- a tux shirt is good but a wing collar isn't needed, though if you want one go for it.
- a self-tie black bow tie is best. I wouldn't wear a regular tie with a PC or a tux shirt full stop. Looks strange.
- anything other than a silver metal cantle and fur sporran looks odd to me with a PC. Horsehair or full mask I could live with as alternatives.
- you don't need ghillie brogues. Your Oxfords will work fine if well-polished, though I'd keep an eye open for a pair of black Oxford brogues.
- solid colour hose of decent quality will do fine. Colour depends on your kilt, mine is predominantly green and red hose work well.

As already noted, you'll be wanting a formal sgian. Other details could include shirt studs and cufflinks. I'm UK based so can't comment on US jacket fit

. In general though fits can vary with cut and maker so buying without trying it on will always be chancy.

Best regards, EEM.

Sage advice here!

Many tend to overdress for most black tie events and the above advice will do you perfectly well for anything other than the most formal of formal evening events which are actually rare. Even then, care needs to be taken.

Don't believe me? Many won't!

Google ---- Michael Gove kilt-----and look at the images you will see Mr Gove a Scot, a British Government Minister and long time kilt wearer escorting a lady to a State Banquet given in honour of the American President and the First Lady at Buckingham Palace recently. The un-kilted gentlemen present will be wearing white tie but, Mr Gove is in his kilt attire and is dressed almost exactly as Micrographia suggests and is entirely suitably dressed for the auspicious occasion.

Perhaps some cleaver person here could provide a link to the picture?

**Tomo** · 6th February 21, 04:55 AM

I think Micrographia nailed it - the only thing I would add is if you don't want to go with a fur sporran, your best bet would be a hunting style sporran with a metal cantle.

**gsmacleod** · 6th February 21, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Google ---- Michael Gove kilt-----and look at the images you will see Mr Gove a Scot, a British Government Minister and long time kilt wearer escorting a lady to a State Banquet given in honour of the American President and the First Lady at Buckingham Palace recently. The un-kilted gentlemen present will be wearing white tie but, Mr Gove is in his kilt attire and is dressed almost exactly as Micrographia suggests and is entirely suitably dressed for the auspicious occasion.

Here's the image that Jock mentioned.

2.43301157~2.jpg

Shane

**Jock Scot** · 6th February 21, 05:10 AM

Thank you Shane.

**Micrographia** · 6th February 21, 05:28 AM

Apologies all - edited post to expand a few points before realising there were replies!

Regards, EEM

**KennethSime** · 6th February 21, 11:03 AM

Thank you all, I feel a lot better after reading your responses. Frankly I was worrying that I had asked a stupid question.

I've come to feel pretty comfortable with kilting but this formal stuff is still out of my comfort zone. In addition to the oxfords, I think I'll start looking for a black bow tie, an appropriate shirt + cuff links, and either a hunting sporran with a metal cantle or a horsehair sporran. If I come across some black brogued oxfords that work for me all the better.