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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCampbell16B View Post
    You may take anything Figheadair writes as authoritative. He is both a weaver of and consultant on tartan. He is associated with the Scottish Tartans Authority, but his relationship escapes me at the moment.
    I'm the STA's honorary Head of Research.

  2. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  3. #12
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    I was writing from memory, and mis-remembered the date I had read. My apologies...

    In dealing with the clan tartans, Fraser of Reelig's history of Clan Munro mentions both the Clan Tartan and the Black Watch that the Munros wear as a 'hunting' tartan. What the Munros have long-held as their clan tartan, the mainly red tartan of the examples already shown in the pictures, Fraser refers to as a 'bright' sett '...that is usually worn as an alternative to-day, especially on dress occasions. Slight variations of it are known. Neither this sett, nor any of its variations, has yet been recorded prior to 1790.'

    Rather tellingly, Fraser sets out separately and in bold type that 'The size of the sett is a matter for the wearer's discretion.'

    This is the reference I had in my mind. But I have no idea what Fraser's source was - none of my searches amongst the Munro archives has established an original link with Clan Munro and this particular tartan, and any date of it first being worn as a 'clan' tartan seems to have gone unrecorded. Portraits at Foulis, photographs and specimens all suggest that the Munros have worn it for 150 years at least.

    The thread-count used by R. W. (Billy) Munro for the weaving of cloth for the kilt in question, is that given by Donald Stewart in his 'Setts of the Scottish Tartans' and is shown in 'stick' form in Billy's book I mentioned previously. The appearance of this version seems to correspond with the illustrations in earlier books depicting the tartans, and is virtually identical (so similar that the same colour separations could have been used for the printing) to the colour plate given in a Forsyth's book of 1907.

    Billy's widow, Jean, has vague memories of choosing the colours and having the cloth woven in time for their wedding, and that the kilt was made up by Wm. Andersons. Kinloch Anderson have been exceptionally co-operative and helpful in their way, but we have been so far unable to identify the weaver - Andersons themselves were only involved in the kilt-making, and the samples Andersons keep on file from this period are all quite different.

    The selvedge of the kilt is quite irregular, and seems a slightly tighter weave than what is now seen coming from the commercial mills. I suspect this particular cloth was woven as a single width in a suitable length - I understand the excess was enough to make a skirt for Mrs Munro.

    Interestingly, in reference to this thread-count, Donald Stewart says it is '...usually considered the correct sett...' and he refers to Smibert and the Smiths.

    A sett of this size looks good from a distance, and the pattern of the sett is clear. The smaller sett versions, particularly the lighter weight cloths, have the tendancy to 'dazzle' as the brilliance of the yellow can overpower the other colours.

    But I wonder, is there any practial reason why the smaller sett is prefered? I can imagine a small sett is more bothersome for weavers to set up and produce.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Before the advent of the modern (standardised) kilt style c1900, kilt material was often woven in large settings which reflected the older plaid setting style. The Locheil/Munro kilt is c1830 and has a huge sett by today's standards.

    Attachment 40253

    This sample is interesting and good to see - I feel this is what the so-named 'Foulis Sett' intends to replicate. I am curious to know what the motivation among commercial weavers was to reduce the size of the sett. Is it simply a matter of current fashion, or are there more technical reasons, I wonder.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    In dealing with the clan tartans, Fraser of Reelig's history of Clan Munro mentions both the Clan Tartan and the Black Watch that the Munros wear as a 'hunting' tartan. What the Munros have long-held as their clan tartan, the mainly red tartan of the examples already shown in the pictures, Fraser refers to as a 'bright' sett '...that is usually worn as an alternative to-day, especially on dress occasions. Slight variations of it are known. Neither this sett, nor any of its variations, has yet been recorded prior to 1790.'
    Fraser of Reelig was by no means an expert on tartan, his own recreation of an old Fraser sett was woefully inaccurate. I wonder if his 1790 reference might be linked to an alleged Craignish collection of that date mentioned by D. W. Stewart in his Old & Rare Scottish Tartans. I have never been able to find any such collection, nor does the Clan Campbell historian, Alasdair Campbell of Airds, know anything of it. I question whether there was ever such a collection at that date or whether DWS misidentified another, later collection.

    Rather tellingly, Fraser sets out separately and in bold type that 'The size of the sett is a matter for the wearer's discretion.'
    That is always the case, unless the customer has a preference.

    Portraits at Foulis, photographs and specimens all suggest that the Munros have worn it for 150 years at least.
    That still leaves Logan as the earliest reference to the tartan as Munro. The specimen in the Cockburn collection, 1810-15, is labelled Cameron of Locheil, probably on account of Wilsons' name for their pattern as Locheil.

    The thread-count used by R. W. (Billy) Munro for the weaving of cloth for the kilt in question, is that given by Donald Stewart in his 'Setts of the Scottish Tartans' and is shown in 'stick' form in Billy's book I mentioned previously.
    Not quite. Most of the setting is the same but the triple green and intervening red/rose stripes are 6 ends compared with DCS' and the sett stick's 4 ends.

    Interestingly, in reference to this thread-count, Donald Stewart says it is '...usually considered the correct sett...' and he refers to Smibert and the Smiths.
    That statement is to differentiate it from Logan's incorrect setting/count.

    But I wonder, is there any practial reason why the smaller sett is prefered? I can imagine a small sett is more bothersome for weavers to set up and produce.
    Modern weavers tend to weave a 5-7 inch sett as that gives greater utility for the cloth, i.e. it can be used for many different things, not just kilts.
    Last edited by figheadair; 22nd June 21 at 05:50 AM.

  6. #15
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    All I wanted to mention was that I find the differing tastes in sett-size over the years to be interesting.

    Didn't Wilsons weave the Government Sett/Black Watch in several sett-sizes for the military? Different sizes for Other Ranks and Officers for example?

    In Victorian photos and paintings one sees the sett-sizes of men's kilts vary tremendously, from huge setts we would use for travel rugs to small setts we would use for neckties, but all seen in adult men's kilts at that time.

    When I worked at a kilt shop we had the sample-books from three or four major mills, and there was a more-or-less standard sett size for heavyweight kilting cloth amongst the mills. Most used a slightly smaller sett size for their medium weight kilting cloth, and a smaller yet size for the cloth they wove for neckties and other accessories.

    This means that at a typical Highland Games here (where we don't tend to have Clan Chiefs wearing heirloom family kilts) all of the kilted men will be wearing tartan of fairly similar sett sizes.

    Personally I think the mills have settled upon sett sizes which are a bit too small. I prefer the larger setts long maintained in the Army, and the huge setts seen in Victorian times.

    Here are nice big Victorian setts







    Here's what looks to me to be a quite small sett

    Last edited by OC Richard; 22nd June 21 at 06:58 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post

    Didn't Wilsons weave the Government Sett/Black Watch in several sett-sizes for the military? Different sizes for Other Ranks and Officers for example?
    Wilsons' 42nd settings for Officers', Sgts', and Soldiers' plaids differed due to the qualify but the sett size was about the same. Their 'Fine Plaids' and 'Coarse Kilt' setting for the 42nd gave a smaller sett more practical for kilting.

    Yes, the last of your photos has a very small sett.

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