Prince Charlie

[Tomo]

I know Texas is a big place, but I can't help but notice "Houston Traditional Kilt Makers" listed at the top of this forum page. Maybe they can help -- and even of you don't want to make a 3-hr drive, maybe they know of someone in the Austin area.

Houston Kiltmakers are based in Paisley, Scotland.

[Navy87Guy]

Houston Kiltmakers are based in Paisley, Scotland.

LOL! Well, that would be a long drive from Austin!!

(Although I see they have a nice collection of my Hamilton tartans. Not surprising, given the location!)

[Father Bill]

LOL! Well, that would be a long drive from Austin!!

Not only a long drive but you'd probably "flood" your engine.

[AustinDiver]

Thanks folks

I also found out that custom weaves are not for the faint of heart. The kilt was woven nearly 2 years ago. The fly plaid was fairly recent. The tartan is registered, but due to amateur experience the sett was really too large.

The weaver without telling me or sending email, etc scaled the tartan by 5/8. I should have noticed. Maybe I did. They left a 4 thread line at 4 threads. It looks good.

I have a recent copy of the kilt and the flyplaid. I ordered it remotely from my parents house in Odessa, TX which is 350 miles from Austin. My mom who helped a little with colors in one of my tartans, recently passed away in March.
I should have double checked everything. The kilt was in Austin.

The weaver this time scaled the tartan differently this time without telling me sending me email, etc. 3/4 ratio but they scaled a 4 thread line to threads this time.

In the picture, the sette of the fly plaid is different from the sette of the kilt.

Custom weaves are not for the faint of heart.

[Touchstone]

Attachment 40654

If I may divert the conversation back to Prince Charlies ...

On a recent vacation I was showing my wife some of the styles of jackets worn with kilts (I started wearing a kilt only recently, and we have no providers in my home city). When I slipped on a Prince Charlie she was stunned. "That's not you!" she said. And she's right; when I'm not wearing a kilt I tend toward jeans and drab shirts. What caught her eye was the proliferation of silvered buttons.

"But you should see Sean Connery ... he really rocks a kilt!" I said and later did an image search to convince her. To my surprise, in the rather famous pictures of Connery kilted (I think from an award ceremony?) he is wearing a PC, but it doesn't have the two angled sets of three buttons on either side, just a simple three buttons right at the closure. This would indeed be more "me".

Any comments on this topic? Can anyone suggest a provider for this simpler PC?

I'm also interested in replacing the chrome-y buttons on my black Argyll with something a little less glittery - a true silver, German silver, etc., but am not having much luck finding these. Suggestions?

[Tomo]

A picture would help - some photos he does indeed wear a standard looking PC. However, in others (assuming I have the right one) he is wearing something more like a civilian mess jacket.

Houston - who we mentioned earlier in the thread does one - but it has lots of tartan trim on it (although as a custom job I am sure you ask for something else).

However, I think this from Kinloch Anderson is on the money: https://www.kinlochanderson.com/shop...black-barathea

The describe it as: "The Kinloch Anderson Coatee is a tailored short kilt jacket style worn open and is unique to Kinloch Anderson. It is made using premium quality Black Barathea has silk lapels and tails at the back and is trimmed with Celtic buttons on the jacket and jacket cuffs. The vest is fastened with three Celtic buttons. This is also available in Velvet and Coloured Worsted.

In terms of buttons - the standard silver buttons are available in an antique finish (sort of overlaid with a b lack coating that fills in the relief elements) and black - you may also find other styles if you shop around. Kinloch Anderson sells spare buttons (in their own style) but I haven't checked the options on finishes.

[Touchstone]

A picture would help - some photos he does indeed wear a standard looking PC. However, in others (assuming I have the right one) he is wearing something more like a civilian mess jacket.

Houston - who we mentioned earlier in the thread does one - but it has lots of tartan trim on it (although as a custom job I am sure you ask for something else).

However, I think this from Kinloch Anderson is on the money: https://www.kinlochanderson.com/shop...black-barathea

The describe it as: "The Kinloch Anderson Coatee is a tailored short kilt jacket style worn open and is unique to Kinloch Anderson. It is made using premium quality Black Barathea has silk lapels and tails at the back and is trimmed with Celtic buttons on the jacket and jacket cuffs. The vest is fastened with three Celtic buttons. This is also available in Velvet and Coloured Worsted.

In terms of buttons - the standard silver buttons are available in an antique finish (sort of overlaid with a b lack coating that fills in the relief elements) and black - you may also find other styles if you shop around. Kinloch Anderson sells spare buttons (in their own style) but I haven't checked the options on finishes.

Thanks, Tomo. That KA coatee appears to be exactly what my wife is looking for and it very plausibly the very one that Connery was wearing. Wait until she sees the price.

Hope it's all right to post this picture - not sure of the source:

SeanConnerykilted.gif

You can just catch a hint of the tails in that shot. He's wearing it with a jabot, right?

I'll keep looking around for buttons.

[OC Richard]

...in the rather famous pictures of Connery kilted he is wearing a PC, but it doesn't have the two angled sets of three buttons on either side, just a simple three buttons right at the closure.

Any comments on this topic? Can anyone suggest a provider for this simpler PC?

That's an alternate way to make PCs that as far as I know has been around since PCs were invented, sometime shortly after 1900.

It's probably not simpler for the maker, in that a row of buttonholes are often made, while the style which has become most common nowadays doesn't have any buttonholes on the jacket.

Here's that style of PC in the Rowans 1938 catalogue



Here's a current maker making that style of PC, though this one is in tweed.

I'm also interested in replacing the chrome buttons on my black Argyll with something a little less glittery - a true silver, German silver, etc., but am not having much luck finding these. Suggestions?

For sure the uber-shiny chrome buttons cheapen the look of the jacket. There are some makers who use buttons that have a pewter look, and I've seen antiqued buttons too, both of which look nicer.

Back in Victorian times black Argylls, and black doublets, often had ordinary black buttons, the sort you can get at any fabric shop. That would get you totally away from the blingy look.

Anyhow here are antiqued buttons up on Ebay now

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12481045439...BoCI-MQAvD_BwE

Here's a gent in the 1860s, note that his black doublet has ordinary black buttons. What's often overlooked is that in many images of Victorians in what what we would consider overly ornate costumes the jackets are quite plain, jackets which we wouldn't consider "kilt jackets" at all.

[Touchstone]

That's an alternate way to make PCs that as far as I know has been around since PCs were invented, sometime shortly after 1900.

[snip ...]

For sure the uber-shiny chrome buttons cheapen the look of the jacket. There are some makers who use buttons that have a pewter look, and I've seen antiqued buttons too, both of which look nicer.

Back in Victorian times black Argylls, and black doublets, often had ordinary black buttons, the sort you can get at any fabric shop. That would get you totally away from the blingy look.

[and snip ...]

That tweed jacket and waistcoat are fascinating. And thanks for the eBay link. That ought to solve my chrome button problem.

[OC Richard]

How long should a Prince Charlie jacket be? I just received one. It appears a little longer than traditional. I probably got the chest a little too large. It is comfortable.

Attachment 40653

It looks fine to me.

I think it's better to err on the "comfortable" side.

I will mention that the Prince Charlie Coatee, from its first invention, was usually worn with few accessories: no dirk, no dirk belt, no plaid.

That's because it's a 20th century creation, and began becoming popular in the decade following World War One, at the time when Highland Dress was jettisoning accessories in general.

Wearing Victorian accessories with the Prince Charlie would sort of be like putting wooden waggon wheels on a modern automobile.

That being said, the one accessory one does sometimes see with the PC in the 1920s and 1930s is the belted plaid with brooch. (The belted plaid has always been the standard Evening Dress plaid, an expensive complex garment, not to be confused with the quite recent "fly plaid".) As the name implies the belted plaid has a narrow cloth self-belt which goes around the waist under the waistcoat and supports much of the plaid's weight, thus it hangs better and stays in place better than the modern fly plaid.

For a comparison and timeline of the de-accessorisation of Highland Dress, here are gents in a 1909 catalogue and in a 1930s catalogue. The difference is dramatic as one can see. One wonders to what extent World War One had an impact.