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  1. #1
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    Vintage military kilt cloth query

    For many years, I have worn casually an ancient ex-army (Black Watch) kilt, as that regiment rather conveniently wears my clan's 'hunting' tartan. This kilt has always intrigued me, as the cloth from which it is made is much thicker, coarser and heavier than normally seen. The 'handle' much more like the cloth used for horse blankets than the kilting we are used to.

    Many years ago, I acquired and passed on to a Mackenzie friend, a Highland Light Infantry (Mackenzie tartan) kilt in a similar cloth, that was never issued and that contained the maker's label and date - 1936. This kilt is very similar in style and construction to the HLI kilt, and has the same unnecessarily thick and bulky cream woollen lining.

    I have been unable to find definitive information as to when this style and weight of cloth was introduced, what its linear weight was, and when it went out of service. If anyone has this information, I would be most grateful.

    The pictures show the kilt in question, together with another kilt, in a heavy-weight cloth woven in the 1950s, for comparison. The difference between the two is similar to the difference between medium- and heavy-weight cloths seen nowadays.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    I only wish I could have gotten a Sinclair modern in that weight!
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster, lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, traditionalist, bon-vivant, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    I have been unable to find definitive information as to when this style and weight of cloth was introduced, what its linear weight was, and when it went out of service. If anyone has this information, I would be most grateful.
    You are referring to the army Cheviot cloth (so-called from the Cheviot wool) used for OR's kilts from around the beginning of the 20th century, possibly a little earlier, until around the 1970s. It was something like a 22oz cloth. The material for those later kilts was probably woven some time before it's last use.

    Civilian kilts in Cheviot cloth were also offered by the likes of R. W. Forsyth as their 1907 catalogue shows. Whether it was the same weight as the military cloth I do not know.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #4
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    Double post
    Last edited by McMurdo; 31st December 21 at 04:27 PM.

  6. #5
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    I have 2 kilts in military weight. The first is from the Great War period in the Hunting Stewart tartan, the second is a Canadian Black Watch kilt from the 1950's. They are both as you describe.

    Here is the Hunting Stewart (1914-1918, unsure of date but confident that it is from the Great War period)


    The Black Watch (This is a Canadian kilt from the 1953 pattern)


    The label in the Canadian Black Watch

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  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    You are referring to the army Cheviot cloth (so-called from the Cheviot wool) used for OR's kilts from around the beginning of the 20th century, possibly a little earlier, until around the 1970s.
    That's interesting.

    House Of Edgar still weaves (or did up until recently) a lighter-weight version, 18oz as I recall, of that traditional OR-style cloth.

    I purchased a Royal Stewart kilt in that cloth, and made with the green binding. Edgar said they had done many of those, for the military I believe they said.

    Yes the fabric is quite different from ordinary civilian 16oz worsted kilting cloth, more blanket-like. Due to the fuzzy surface the pattern of the tartan doesn't look as crisp. The sett size is rather larger.

    Fairly recent photos of, for example, the Pipes & Drums of 4SCOTS, show a clear difference between the kilt of the Pipe Major (which looks more like civilian 16oz worsted) and the kilts of the other pipers (having that fuzzy look).

    So my impression was that this fabric was still being used at least in the pre-RRS uniforms (antecedent dress) maintained by some of the Pipes & Drums. I'll look for photos showing this.

    Here, note that the kilt of the PM of 3SCOTS' has a rather smaller sett-size. The relative fuzziness isn't apparent here, but the fabric of the OR's kilt looks identical to the military-spec kilt I purchased from HoE.



    Here, note that the kilt of the PM of 4SCOTS (foreground) has the clear distinct tartan of civilian 16oz cloth, while the ORs' kilts have the fuzzy less-distinct pattern of the 18oz ORs' cloth. I've compared swatches of both cloths in a HoE sample-book, and seen both types of kilts in person, so I can assure you it's not an illusion of photography.



    In this closeup of a piper of The Highlanders (pre-RRS) you can see how muted the red lines in the Cameron of Erracht tartan are.



    In any case, this heavy wooly huge-sett fabric was still being made the last time I checked by House of Edgar. It's not the 22oz stuff, but it might be the closest to it that's widely available now.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 1st January 22 at 11:01 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  10. #7
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    I have a kilt in this type of cloth in the Cameron of Erracht tartan. Mine was made for the Australian Army in 1952. This kilt is very heavy compared to my band kilt & my own recently made 14oz kilt. The Colours in the photo look very much brighter than they do in person.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Rama4390

  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    You are referring to the army Cheviot cloth (so-called from the Cheviot wool) used for OR's kilts from around the beginning of the 20th century, possibly a little earlier, until around the 1970s. It was something like a 22oz cloth. The material for those later kilts was probably woven some time before it's last use.

    Civilian kilts in Cheviot cloth were also offered by the likes of R. W. Forsyth as their 1907 catalogue shows. Whether it was the same weight as the military cloth I do not know.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yes, thanks for this - it adds confirmation to what little I have been able to glean.

    I have a copy of the same catalogue, and the lists of products no longer available is fascinating. They list a range of kiltings, from Best Super Saxony, Super Kilting and Cheviot Kilting. and give the width but not the weight of the cloth. They also offer a selection of hose in 25 different tartans in fine or heavy-make for 'ordinary' wear!

    I understand that the breed of sheep (the Cheviot) used to produce a form of rugged and durable cloth common in the past, has been so extensively cross-bred that the original animal is all but extinct in commercial terms - along with its distinctive wool. The old Cheviot tweeds seem to have been in a class of their own, and the currently woven cloth of the name is not at all what its once was.

    Comparing the cloth of my kilt to that of the displays seen in museums (that can be precisely dated) suggests that the preference for a lighter and softer cloth, and with a smoother finish, was quickly established in the immediate post-war years. My assumption (and this is one of the things I am wanting to confirm) is that once the kilted regiments were reduced to the kilt for barrack and ceremonial duties only, the weight and durability of the cloth (and therefore the cost) could be reduced.

    But there must have been unused stock of the older cloth that allowed continued use for a long period. It is perhaps the gradual change from one to the other that makes precise dating and the like so ellusive.

    Apart from the weight and thickness of my kilt's cloth, the two other main characteristics are its texture and water-resistance. The fuzzy hairiness reduces the sharp distinction between the colours, and works like a magnet for hair and fluff (thoroughly irritating), but this also causes water (think rain) to bead readily and remain on the surface before running off - absorbtion is minimal but it does tend to stiffen when wet.

    Personal experience of having been caught in a heavy downpour is a testament to how good a foul-weather garment these kilts can be. The outer surface can be seemingly soaked, but no moisture makes it through to the under layers, even on the front aprons. The khaki over-kilt worn in the trenches must helped, too.

    It is easy to understand why regular troops were so relunctant to give up the kilt as part of battle-dress - the loose-fitting wool serge combats would be tolerable, but the cotton-based twill that was introduced in the mid-1960s must have been hateful when wet.

    This thicker, fuzzier cloth I suspect was spared the finishing processes that are now standard in mass-producing commercial mills, which may have been unnecessary in the past. But I wonder if this type of kilting could be produced today.

  12. #9
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    Incedentally...

    There is well-known army-surplus outlet in Nottingham, England, which is near one of the MoD's auction centres at Ruddington. Occasionally, back in the 1980s, army freight trains would be shunted into the sidings, with great quantities of Landrovers, trucks and armoured vehicles for sale. Clothing and equipment would be sold in bulk.

    This surplus outlet had at one time several rolls of different military tartans being sold at something like £5 per yard - I remember seeing Mackenzie and a couple of the others, but no Black Watch which would have appealed to me.

    But those days are gone. The outlet has twigged, and Highland regimental gear is now hired out or sold at eBay-type prices. Those who bought the straight-from-QM's Stores kilts with basting stitches in place for £25 must still be laughing at their good luck..!

  13. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by McMurdo View Post
    I have 2 kilts in military weight. The first is from the Great War period in the Hunting Stewart tartan, the second is a Canadian Black Watch kilt from the 1950's. They are both as you describe.

    Here is the Hunting Stewart (1914-1918, unsure of date but confident that it is from the Great War period)


    The Black Watch (This is a Canadian kilt from the 1953 pattern)


    The label in the Canadian Black Watch
    Yes, the cloth is very similar, even identical.

    Part of the problem I have with my kilt, is that the maker's label has been removed. It also seems to have had some alteration - a sort of cut-and-shut job, as there is a sewn joint down the centre back pleat, which includes the waistband.

    The joining is too neat and precise to make me think it could be the result of joining two damaged kilts, but it could be a repair of some kind. Curiously, the lining is one piece.

    I have never seen a join of this kind on a military kilt (they are common otherwise) but it is the split in the waistband webbing that makes me suspicious. I have wondered if my kilt is a relic of the Great War, as when I acquired it, it had a matching waistcoat of obviously 1920s style, and with a self-material back.

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