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  1. #1
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    42nd highlander regiment double breasted doublet in Crimea.....

    Hello to all of you. First of all, itīs been a amazing surprise to found a Forum like that. Iīm very interested in the tartan/kilt theme, due to my principal hobby, miniature soldier paint. In fact, one of the periods that loved me, itīs the Crimean War. Iīve done several figures of this subjet and I enjoy too much work with it. One of my principal references about this subjet is Fenton photographies. And one of these that Iīm interested to work with, is Piper Muir of 42nd Highlander regiment (BLACK WATCH). Fentonīs photo itīs amazing and actually Iīm trying to sculpt it.

    However, Iīve several difficulties to try to looking for references about the double breasted doublet of the photograph. I havenīt enough grafical references of its design. And this is the reason to write this extensed message... It would be possible to obtain images (photos, drawings...) of the 42nd highlander coatee similar to the Muir photograph???. It would be a inestimable help to try to get an accurate figure of the Piper.....

    If this is not the appropiate message in this forum, please forgive me, and thanks to read this.

    Yours sincerelly,

    Javier Sánchez
    MALAGA (SPAIN)

  2. #2
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    reference material

    Try this for reference.

    https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forc...hpiper1854.htm

    The kilt does not look too much like a Royal Stewart, but that is what they wore.

    Good luck with your project.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinenotburn View Post
    Try this for reference.

    https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forc...hpiper1854.htm

    The kilt does not look too much like a Royal Stewart, but that is what they wore.
    The 42nd were were given permission to wear the Royal Stewart in 1865; before then they wore the Music Tartan which is what is shown in the image linked. More here - 42nd Band Tartan.

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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinenotburn View Post
    Try this for reference.

    https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forc...hpiper1854.htm

    The kilt does not look too much like a Royal Stewart, but that is what they wore.

    Good luck with your project.
    Thanks for the refernce..... Iīve a cuestion about that..... In the picture, It looks like the jacket lacks the "inverness flaps" below.... itīs that correct??? In that case, how itīs the design of the jacketīs back???

    Sorry for the inconveniences that I can cause, but I try to do a accurate version of Fentonīs photograph, and I donīt want leave any detail whitout investigate....

    THANKS A LOT AGAIN

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVIER SANCHEZ View Post
    Thanks for the refernce..... Iīve a cuestion about that..... In the picture, It looks like the jacket lacks the "inverness flaps" below.... itīs that correct??? In that case, how itīs the design of the jacketīs back???

    Sorry for the inconveniences that I can cause, but I try to do a accurate version of Fentonīs photograph, and I donīt want leave any detail whitout investigate....

    THANKS A LOT AGAIN
    The style is older that the later doublet style with tashes (Inverness Skirts/Flaps), none survive so far as I know and I’ve never seen a picture of the back. In style it likes more like a Napoleonic era cavalry doublet.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVIER SANCHEZ View Post
    ...the Crimean War...

    ...Fenton photographs...Piper Muir of 42nd Highlander regiment (BLACK WATCH). Fenton's photo is amazing and actually Iīm trying to sculpt it.

    ...looking for references about the double-breasted doublet of the photograph.
    Speaking firstly of the Highland soldiers in general (not pipers) as far as I know those double-breasted doublets weren't worn during the Crimean War, but introduced afterwards. The coatee, worn since around 1800, was still used in the Crimea. (A coatee has tails in the back, and cut straight across in front.)

    The famous photos of Crimean War veterans shows them wearing the new 1855 Doublets, but note that the doublets look brand-new, because they were!





    That style Doublet- double-breasted with square buttons- was introduced in 1855 and only lasted one year, being replaced by single-breasted doublets with round buttons in 1856.

    (The 1856-1868 style doublet)



    Pipers are a different matter, and each Regiment was a law unto itself.

    Pipers of the 79th (Cameron Highlanders) had been wearing dark green doublets since 1841.

    Pipers of the 93rd (Sutherland Highlanders) had been wearing red doublets since around 1850.

    I'm not sure of the exact timeline of uniform for 42nd pipers. In 1840 one can be seen in a red coatee as worn by the rest of the regiment. But at some point they seem to have been put into Black Watch tartan coatees.



    Presumably when the entire Highland infantry was put into doublets in 1855 the Black Watch pipers were given Black Watch tartan doublets. As Peter mentions the kilts and plaids would have been the Black Watch Music Tartan.

    Last edited by OC Richard; 15th January 22 at 07:56 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Speaking firstly of the Highland soldiers in general (not pipers) as far as I know those double-breasted doublets weren't worn during the Crimean War, but introduced afterwards. The coatee, worn since around 1800, was still used in the Crimea. (A coatee has tails in the back, and cut straight across in front.)

    The famous photos of Crimean War veterans shows them wearing the new 1855 Doublets, but note that the doublets look brand-new, because they were!





    That style Doublet- double-breasted with square buttons- was introduced in 1855 and only lasted one year, being replaced by single-breasted doublets with round buttons in 1856.

    (The 1856-1868 style doublet)



    Pipers are a different matter, and each Regiment was a law unto itself.

    Pipers of the 79th (Cameron Highlanders) had been wearing dark green doublets since 1841.

    Pipers of the 93rd (Sutherland Highlanders) had been wearing red doublets since around 1850.

    I'm not sure of the exact timeline of uniform for 42nd pipers. In 1840 one can be seen in a red coatee as worn by the rest of the regiment. But at some point they seem to have been put into Black Watch tartan coatees.



    Presumably when the entire Highland infantry was put into doublets in 1855 the Black Watch pipers were given Black Watch tartan doublets. As Peter mentions the kilts and plaids would have been the Black Watch Music Tartan.


    Thanks for your answer.

    It would be correct that, at the time of making the famous photos of Crimean veterans, Piper Muir photographīs shows a double breasted doublet without inverness flaps, with Black Watch design, and kilt and plaid with the Black Watch Music Tartan??

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVIER SANCHEZ View Post
    Would it be correct that...the Piper Muir photograph shows a double-breasted doublet without Inverness flaps, in Black Watch tartan, and kilt and plaid with the Black Watch Music Tartan?
    Muir's doublet clearly has the tashes/Inverness skirts. You can just see them under the dirk.

    They show up better here, you can see the tashe, the button, and the loop of Soutache braid going to the button:



    A terminology thing, only if a jacket has tashes (literally "pockets") AKA Inverness skirts all around is it a Doublet.

    (Piper of the 93rd. At far right the shell jacket can be seen.)



    Here's a colour representation of the short-lived 1855 doublet, note the dirk belt is worn under the doublet.

    (Officers of the 93rd.)



    Coatees have skirts in the back and are straight and waist-length in the front. They were worn in the army from 1800 to 1855, and revived a century later, in 1953.

    (Pipers of the Black Watch.)



    Then there are Shell Jackets, extremely popular in the mid-19th century, which end at the waist all around (no skirts of any sort).

    They were worn as an Undress jacket in Victorian times (officer at right).

    Last edited by OC Richard; 16th January 22 at 06:12 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  11. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Muir's doublet clearly has the tashes/Inverness skirts. You can just see them under the dirk.

    They show up better here, you can see the tashe, the button, and the loop of Soutache braid going to the button:



    A terminology thing, only if a jacket has tashes (literally "pockets") AKA Inverness skirts all around is it a Doublet.

    (Piper of the 93rd. At far right the shell jacket can be seen.)



    Here's a colour representation of the short-lived 1855 doublet, note the dirk belt is worn under the doublet.

    (Officers of the 93rd.)



    Coatees have skirts in the back and are straight and waist-length in the front. They were worn in the army from 1800 to 1855, and revived a century later, in 1953.

    (Pipers of the Black Watch.)



    Then there are Shell Jackets, extremely popular in the mid-19th century, which end at the waist all around (no skirts of any sort).

    They were worn as an Undress jacket in Victorian times (officer at right).


    Thank you to all. All your information and references are very useful. As soon I finish my work, Iīll show you. Thanks again....

  12. #10
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    (I sure hope that the Highlanders aren't headed back into Crimea in the near future.)
    Those ancient U Nialls from Donegal were a randy bunch.

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