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  1. #1
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    The Languages of Scotland - English, Gaelic and Scots

    Hi guys,
    Firstly I'd like to ask any Scots out there (and in particular any younger generations) about their experience of the Scots language? I ask about the younger generations specifically as I wonder if some people close to my age (23) had the same experience of on one hand knowing Scots was a language - i.e. being exposed to it in Burns' poems - but on the other viewing it as slang or dialect or anything other than its own distinct language. I can't speak for all the older generation, but maybe some were a victim of the minoritization of Scots (it was beaten out of children in schools, dismissed as 'slang' etc) so some may feel disconnected to the language due to that trauma.

    Basically, I was watching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_Game and noting how the two main characters speak similar to my gran at times, by that they use the same words. An example 'He's ay been like that" meaning 'He's always been like that". I wondered when that sort of language would die out, and then came across @misspunnypennie on tiktok, a Scottish woman who does Scots Word Of The Day on her page. This made me want to not allow the language to die, and also now I am adamant it is a language! I feel like I was robbed of something a little bit, I could have been more versed in Scots had it not had so much stigma attached to it like being viewed as unprofessional or simply slang. I'm glad to still know what I do know, but it saddens me that certain phrases may go with my granny.

    I'm not sure how to finish this, other than I hope the shame and leftover stigma dies out, along with the word 'slang'
    Shannon

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  3. #2
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    misspunnypennie is a lovely lass (the spitting image of my daughter!), a modern languages student at St. Andrews University but she has been subjected to some vicious trolling by Unionists because of her support for Scots. Here she is talking about it.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1489345551946731523

    I'm sure she will keep going.

    Alan

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by neloon View Post
    misspunnypennie is a lovely lass (the spitting image of my daughter!), a modern languages student at St. Andrews University but she has been subjected to some vicious trolling by Unionists because of her support for Scots. Here she is talking about it.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1489345551946731523

    I'm sure she will keep going.

    Alan
    Her Scots poetry is also very good.
    Shannon

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  7. #4
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    Welcome to the "Great Rabble"!
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair.

  8. #5
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    There has been an increasing need recently to see Scots dialect as a distinct language, that is totally different from the North Country English that is its base, and the Scottish Nationalist movement encourages this.

    The bulk of what is thought of as Scots is used in one form or another as far south as the Humber in England, and much of the difference is only regional pronunciation and accent.

    It must be remembered that Scots Gaelic was not universally spoken, and was, in fact, a minority language for a long period. The current drive at the Gaelicisation of Scotland is one of the much-criticised moves of the Nationalist government, designed to create added distinction from England.

    British, what we now call Welsh, was the language spoken in the Lowlands of southern Scotland and upto the Moray coast, and can be readily seen in place names. This is beyond dispute. The Anglo-Saxon influence came with the formation of Northumbrian kingdom, which included the Lothians (named after its Anglo-Saxon founder, Lot), and the Welsh/British-speaking region was reduced first to border-straddling kingdom of Strathclyde and now to the wholly English Cumbria. It is well-known that much of Bruce's lowland army of the 14th century were Welsh-speaking 'Scots'.

    What is known as 'Scots' is 'Anglo' or Nordic Anglo-Saxon, and southern English is 'Saxon' Anglo-Saxon. This can be heard even today in the tones and accents. Until about a century ago, North Country English (almost identical in many ways to 'Scots') was more readily understood in Oslo than in London. It has been noted that an interpreter was often needed in London for conversation between a Northerner and Southerner.

    When written (Burns' style) 'Scots' appears different from standard English because of the phonetic spellings, but the same is true of Geordia, Cumbrian or Yorkshire brogue. Read Burns with a Yorkshire Dales accent, and the simlarity is plain to hear.

    So if Scots is to be treated as a separate and distinct language, it is only right that the other versions are treated the same.

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  10. #6
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    Yes, Old English was just one of the Germanic dialects brought to the British Isles specifically by the Angles and Scots was simply called "Inglis" a thousand years ago. One of the continuing problems for Scots is its very similarity to English. In that respect, Gaelic has more of a future. Furthermore, the diversity of dialects within Scots means that there cannot be such a thing as Standard Scots. Unfortunately, the greater richness in the Doric of the North East is largely ignored by the activists in the Central Belt.

    Alan

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    There has been an increasing need recently to see Scots dialect as a distinct language, that is totally different from the North Country English that is its base, and the Scottish Nationalist movement encourages this.

    The bulk of what is thought of as Scots is used in one form or another as far south as the Humber in England, and much of the difference is only regional pronunciation and accent.

    It must be remembered that Scots Gaelic was not universally spoken, and was, in fact, a minority language for a long period. The current drive at the Gaelicisation of Scotland is one of the much-criticised moves of the Nationalist government, designed to create added distinction from England.

    British, what we now call Welsh, was the language spoken in the Lowlands of southern Scotland and upto the Moray coast, and can be readily seen in place names. This is beyond dispute. The Anglo-Saxon influence came with the formation of Northumbrian kingdom, which included the Lothians (named after its Anglo-Saxon founder, Lot), and the Welsh/British-speaking region was reduced first to border-straddling kingdom of Strathclyde and now to the wholly English Cumbria. It is well-known that much of Bruce's lowland army of the 14th century were Welsh-speaking 'Scots'.

    What is known as 'Scots' is 'Anglo' or Nordic Anglo-Saxon, and southern English is 'Saxon' Anglo-Saxon. This can be heard even today in the tones and accents. Until about a century ago, North Country English (almost identical in many ways to 'Scots') was more readily understood in Oslo than in London. It has been noted that an interpreter was often needed in London for conversation between a Northerner and Southerner.

    When written (Burns' style) 'Scots' appears different from standard English because of the phonetic spellings, but the same is true of Geordia, Cumbrian or Yorkshire brogue. Read Burns with a Yorkshire Dales accent, and the simlarity is plain to hear.

    So if Scots is to be treated as a separate and distinct language, it is only right that the other versions are treated the same.
    Is it creating distinction from England or is it reclaiming a culture that was taken from you before you were ever born? I think if a language/way of speaking comes engrained with a culture, words unique to that language and also especially for Scots there is an element of code switching, it is a language of its own right. My initial post was not arguing whether Scots is a language (spoiler, it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language but of the experience of people who grew up in Scottish culture, and their exposure to Scots. We have popular TV that utilise it and then its used in varying degrees inside and outside of the home. But to speak for myself, I for one know I code switch depending on the scenario, and also have been on the receiving end of people saying it is slang or unprofessional (sometimes from the very people who exposed me to it in the first place) because they had so much stigma engrained into them. This post was more about the concerted effort to not only destroy a language but a culture. I do not believe learning about these kinds of things is an attempt to create a distinction between Scotland and England, there already was one.
    Shannon

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  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by neloon View Post
    Yes, Old English was just one of the Germanic dialects brought to the British Isles specifically by the Angles and Scots was simply called "Inglis" a thousand years ago. One of the continuing problems for Scots is its very similarity to English. In that respect, Gaelic has more of a future. Furthermore, the diversity of dialects within Scots means that there cannot be such a thing as Standard Scots. Unfortunately, the greater richness in the Doric of the North East is largely ignored by the activists in the Central Belt.

    Alan
    Exactly so. My part of Aberdeenshire is rich pickings for the language historian, particularly those with Pictish interests, but Doric seems to be under some considerable threat.

    Unfortunately, Gaelic is being used as a political tool to create divisions and distinctions where none need to be, and the value of Scotland's other regional forms of speech is being played down.

    According to Welsh/ancient British written history, both the Picts, and the later arriving Gaels (Scots) are relatively new incomers, and were 'allowed' land not required by the British themselves. In Scotland, the original British, which later formed into such as Doric in the northeast, and was replaced by Scots-English elsewhere, has a far greater 'right' than Gaelic in my view.

  15. #9
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    I'm not sure that "right" comes into it. It's just that there is so much more employment where Gaelic is a requirement than there is for Scots speakers. Of course it would be great to have both but the younger generation is mostly going down the Gaelic route. Which is why the work of Len Pennie ("Miss PunnyPennie ") is so valuable,

    Alan

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  17. #10
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    Scotland, like the rest of the UK, has local accents and in my youth they used to be very much more pronounced and with different words used to describe the same thing and more distinct and particular to very identifiable regions and often to quite small areas within a county, before several decades of "BBC English" watered them down. These days accents are still often noticeable as a more regional one today. Although I notice an Essex/North London/American influence gaining hold of accents throughout the UK these days. Its not surprising as the TV, internet and growth of international travel is "shrinking" the world hugely and the resulting mixtures of accents must influence us all one way or another.

    Doric is of course a language, I heard some being spoken by the coal man and his mate just the other day as they were unloading, and its very noticeable and unusual in this part of Scotland. Gaelic is not unusual around here, as to the rest,I am not sure that I would describe the assorted amalgam of Scots/English accents as a language. As I am not an expert on these things I may be mistaken, but I personally would just describe these local phraseologies, terminologies and so on as just a local accent and as are various descriptive words which are peculiar to a particular area and not a language as such.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 4th May 22 at 03:44 AM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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