Happy Feast of St. Andrew

[Father Bill]

Not sure that I've seen a post on this, but happy St. Andrew's Day to all!



Saint Andrew was the brother of Saint Peter and, like him, a fisherman. He was a disciple of Saint John the Baptist, but on hearing him say one day, “Behold the Lamb of God!” pointing as he did so to our Blessed Lord, he immediately followed Him, and was the first called of the Apostles. He lost no time, after that, in bringing his brother to our Lord, who admitted him among His disciples, and changed his name from Simon to that of Peter. Saint Andrew carried the light of the Gospel into Scythia, Sogdiana, Colchis, Epirus, Pontus, and Achaia. He was apprehended by Egeas, the proconsul, imprisoned, and most cruelly beaten. He was crucified at Patras, in Achaia, on a cross in the form of the letter X; and after hanging on it for two days, preaching to the people, he gave up his blessed soul, encompassed by a great light, a.d. 69.
Online at: https://catholicsaints.info/short-li...w-the-apostle/

[Ivor]

For a forum dedicated to things Scottish it is good that you remind everyone about their patron saint. There is a noticeable difference when it comes to Ireland’s patron saint and is this just a confusion about the different nationalities in the United Kingdom?

[Father Bill]

For a forum dedicated to things Scottish it is good that you remind everyone about their patron saint. There is a noticeable difference when it comes to Ireland’s patron saint and is this just a confusion about the different nationalities in the United Kingdom?

Every cultural community has their traditions, often based on legendary feats - heroes and saints. When there is water between those communities, the differences are more likely to have increased in their early days in the absence of greater propinquity.

[Ivor]

You don’t think, perhaps, that it may be more of a cultural appropriation of one society’s history and values by that of another then? I know that there is little celebration of Patron saints in the various countries of the United Kingdom, whereas St Patrick enjoys widespread remembrance both in Ireland and abroad. I sometimes wonder if the celebration of Burns is a similar phenomenon and whether the opportunity to raise a glass might be a more important incentive in either case.

[Father Bill]

You don’t think, perhaps, that it may be more of a cultural appropriation of one society’s history and values by that of another then? I know that there is little celebration of Patron saints in the various countries of the United Kingdom, whereas St Patrick enjoys widespread remembrance both in Ireland and abroad. I sometimes wonder if the celebration of Burns is a similar phenomenon and whether the opportunity to raise a glass might be a more important incentive in either case.

I'm in no position to speak on behalf of any specific culture and those who do so, often get knocked up the side of the head by others of that group, but my sense is that Patrick is actually more of a phenomenon in America than even in Ireland and often primarily as you have hinted, as an excuse for a lot of beer to be consumed. Scotland of course uses the cross of Andrew as their national flag, so that's pretty blatant.

I will stay away from the religious interpretations, but there is some historical cultural development that comes from the reformation and resultant split in the church.

For example, St. Joseph is claimed as the patron of Canada, but I doubt if 1% of Canadians would even know that. Similarly, I doubt if very many Americans know that Mother Mary is their patroness. Welsh folk generally know that David is their patron, but I don't see a great deal of response to that in Welsh culture.

It's my guess that part of the dominance of saintly recognition in certain nations is likely from the predominance (or lack thereof) of the Roman denomination which emphasizes that much more than protestants do.

All of this is of course, speculation, but I do like to bring Andrew forward from time to time, only because this forum is Scottish in nature. It is said that some of his bones were brought to be buried at the now destroyed Cathedral and town bearing his name, but the only indication is a roughly carved saltire over the spot said to be that resting place. Frankly, the golf course gets much more adulation and visitation than the ruins of the cathedral.

On the contrary, if you visit Paris, St. Genevieve, the city's patron, is entombed in a gilded and bejewelled casket on display in her cathedral on the hill. Again, I would speculate on the greater historical predominance there of Roman Catholicism which emphasizes such worship more than the protestants whose followers destroyed Andrew's Cathedral for exactly the reason of de-emphasizing the "cult" of the saints. The often bitter recriminations between Rome and the protestant denomination is the basis of many cultural phenomena and history.

I hope that this perhaps casts at least a dim light on the historical roots of the phenomenon you have observed without dipping into a more dangerous and volcanic discussion of the values and worths of faiths or denominations themselves.