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  1. #1
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    Goal to get a grant of COA

    Well I have now talked to the Irish Chief Herald, Lord Lyon, and the College of Arms.

    I would like to receive my grant from Lyon; however, as it stands I qualify for the other two. The problem I am having with the Lyon is proving Scottish ancestry on the paternal side. It seems my paternal side has been here quite a while and went straight to the mountains upon arrival...ergo crappy records.

    Anyone else have this problem? The states I am working with are KY and NC.
    [I]From my tribe I take nothing, I am the maker of my own fortune.[/I]-[B]Tecumseh[/B]
    [LEFT][B]FSA Scot
    North Carolina Commissioner for Clan Cochrane
    Sons of the American Revolution[/B][/LEFT]

  2. #2
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    Quote Originally Posted by WVHighlander View Post
    Well I have now talked to the Irish Chief Herald, Lord Lyon, and the College of Arms.

    I would like to receive my grant from Lyon; however, as it stands I qualify for the other two. The problem I am having with the Lyon is proving Scottish ancestry on the paternal side. It seems my paternal side has been here quite a while and went straight to the mountains upon arrival...ergo crappy records.

    Anyone else have this problem? The states I am working with are KY and NC.
    In a word, yes. The COA requires that one prove descent from a subject of the English crown, so you might have to have proof dating prior to the Treaty of Paris, no small feat if your ancestors were here very early.

    One thing to consider is that there is no difference under US law between granted, matriculated, or assumed arms.

    Given the high price of a grant, one might consider assuming arms and using the thousands of dollars that would have been spent on the grant in commissioning a library painting, signet ring, banner, etc.

    Of course, there is a certain cachet in having arms that were granted by an official office.

    Cordially,

    David

  3. #3
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    David,

    I quite understand you point. As it were, I could have arms created and listed in the American College of Heraldry and pay on $350 or so. However, with my Clan association, military background, historic academic leaning, and vacations to the UK...I have leaned toward this route. The College and Ireland are less stringent about this than the Lyon. In both cases I have the necessary paperwork to qualify. The College only wants to show ancestry before the Treaty...done. Ireland only wants one Irish ancestor in the lineage with paperwork...also done. It took over a year of research but I have that; however, the Lyon is my gold ring. Unless I find out someone changed our surname in the past and I am really of English etc. descent. However, from the DNA tests I have taken....I am looking VERY Celtic.

    It is sad really. G Washington, J Adams and many other founders were proponents of Heraldry. I wish the US would have allowed for an official College to have been created. Ireland is a republic and has one...with no ill effect of plebeian thought. Perhaps opinions of ostentatious..but not nobility.

    However, if I am unable to attain the COA from the aforementioned organizations then I will probably go the American College route.
    Last edited by WVHighlander; 3rd March 12 at 06:35 PM.
    [I]From my tribe I take nothing, I am the maker of my own fortune.[/I]-[B]Tecumseh[/B]
    [LEFT][B]FSA Scot
    North Carolina Commissioner for Clan Cochrane
    Sons of the American Revolution[/B][/LEFT]

  4. #4
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    Quote Originally Posted by WVHighlander View Post
    David,

    I quite understand you point. As it were, I could have arms created and listed in the American College of Heraldry and pay on $350 or so. However, with my Clan association, military background, historic academic leaning, and vacations to the UK...I have leaned toward this route. It is sad really. G Washington, J Adams and many other founders were proponents of Heraldry. I wish the US would have allowed for an official College to have been created. Ireland is a republic and has one...with no ill effect of plebeian thought. Perhaps opinions of ostentatious..but not nobility.

    However, if I am unable to attain the COA from the aforementioned organizations then I will probably go the American College route.
    I understand well, being of a very similar mind...

    If you do decide to go towards the assumption route (as Washington and Adams did) I'd urge you to register your arms with the NEHGS instead of the ACH. In my mind you don't get much with ACH for the money and the NEHGS is the older, and in my estimation, better respected of the two.

    I've found the AHS website a good source of information:
    http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php

  5. #5
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    This is something I've been thinking of looking into. A quick question, if I may: does it have to be paternally going all the way back (as in father, his father, his father's father, etc.) or does it have to be something on your father's side (for example, father's mother)? My last name is Lloyd, which is undeniably Welsh in every way, but my paternal grandmother was a Foster and I have that lineage traced back to the 1500's going from Forrester to Foster at a point along the ways when my ancestors moved from the Lowlands on down into England.
    Last edited by rlloyd; 3rd March 12 at 06:42 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    Quote Originally Posted by rlloyd View Post
    This is something I've been thinking of looking into. A quick question, if I may: does it have to be paternally going all the way back (as in father, his father, his father's father, etc.) or does it have to be something on your father's side (for example, father's mother)? My last name is Lloyd, which is undeniably Welsh in every way, but my paternal grandmother was a Foster and I have that lineage traced back to the 1500's.
    Lord Lyon requires that one's paternal line ancestor be under his jurisdiction, as arms follow the name. Arms are granted to that ancestor and then a cadet matriculation from that grant is obtained.

    So, if one's last name is Pope and one's ancestors emigrated from Bristol, England to the Colonies, LL has no jurisdiction. I assume your situation is the same.
    Last edited by davidlpope; 3rd March 12 at 06:49 PM.

  7. #7
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    Unless you currently fall under the jurisdiction of the Lyon such as owning property, or perform an act for the Lyon that may merit him granting arms.
    [I]From my tribe I take nothing, I am the maker of my own fortune.[/I]-[B]Tecumseh[/B]
    [LEFT][B]FSA Scot
    North Carolina Commissioner for Clan Cochrane
    Sons of the American Revolution[/B][/LEFT]

  8. #8
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    WVHighlander,
    I'm in much the same boat as you. According to research that a distant cousin has published online - which I am in the process of confirming for myself - my paternal line goes back to at least the 1700's in North America (1790 in Kentucky alone! ). Since many of the records have been lost &/or otherwise destroyed, I suspect I will have a great deal of difficulty in proving a Scottish connection, even though our family name is Scott. (My cousin was having a hard time untangling a few men with the same names & about the same ages living in the same area at the same general time. At least one of them was Scottish. The others need more research.)

    In the event I can't prove a Scottish descent, it has been suggested to me that it might be possible to persuade Lyon to grant arms to the oldest ancestor I can confirm descent from in the 1700's 'in lieu of any evidence to the contrary' that they're not Scottish. The trouble is, I may not even be able to prove the family was under Crown jurisdiction prior to Sep 3, 1783 (the date of the signing of the Treaty of Paris ending the Revolutionary War). In that case, a petition to Lyon would likely be fruitless.

    For your search:
    In Kentucky, any records prior to 1911 would have to be found in the county of record. (The Commonwealth started collecting & archiving 'vital statistics' - birth, marriage and death records - from the entire state in 1911.) These county records would be not only the 'vital statistics', but tax records, court cases, property transfers, etc. I believe the non-vital records still remain with each county of record. Sometimes a local church or cemetery may have separate records from the state or county, depending on the size of the congregation. Prior to 1792 (the year Kentucky became a Commonwealth independent of Virginia), the records would probably be found in the Virginia Archives (either in the Library of Virginia or in the county of record).

    I don't know anything about North Carolina records/recordkeeping, but I suspect it would be similar (look in the county of record, etc.).

    I do know some states do their own census outside of/in addition to the federal decennial census. (Plus the U.S. Census Bureau does other statistical analyses when they're not compiling the decennial census: agricultural/farm census, business census, etc.). Those might be other avenues of research.

    Best of luck!
    John

  9. #9
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    Quote Originally Posted by WVHighlander View Post
    Unless you currently fall under the jurisdiction of the Lyon such as owning property, or perform an act for the Lyon that may merit him granting arms.
    Just as a bit of clarification. The fact of owning property in Scotland in itself is not enough.

    The man petitioning for a grant from Lord Lyon must show:
    - that they live in or on the property for a minimum of 184 days each year, (being just over one half of a year),
    - that there is a habitable building on the land or an ancient building being rebuilt,
    - that they can be contacted, by post, at that address.

    I do not know what act could be performed for LL to make him grant arms.

    Regards

    Chas

  10. #10
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    Re: Goal to get a grant of COA

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    ------

    I do not know what act could be performed for LL to make him grant arms.

    Regards

    Chas

    Oh I should think that saving his life for the tenth time , might just swing the decision your way!
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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