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  1. #1
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    Looking for the arms of Graham Menteith

    I have attached the largest most detailed image I can seem to find of the arms of Graham Menteith. It seems super easy to find the arms of Graham Montrose compared to Menteith lol, even on the clan Graham society's web site.

    Does anyone happen to have a larger, better detailed version? I can't even make out the words although I know it says "Right and Reason".

    Thanks!

    Alex

  2. #2
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    I cannot directly help you with a picture, but have found a book, which includes a couple of hundred pages on the 8 Graham Earls of Menteith.
    It maybe of some help to you. Cheers
    https://archive.org/details/redbookofmentev100fras
    Last edited by Downunder Kilt; 3rd October 14 at 12:06 AM.
    Shoot straight you bastards. Don't make a mess of it. Harry (Breaker) Harbord Morant - Bushveldt Carbineers

  3. #3
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    That certainly helps very much, thank you! My genealogy goes Graham Esk, Netherby < Graham Menteith < Stewart < etc. on back, and I still have allot to learn!

    For nearly a century it was a misconception in my family that we were directly descended from Graham Claverhouse (John Graham, Viscount Dundee) but after my father died I did some research and found out they were just cousins and I only share a 19th great grandmother with them.

    After a quick read online and it looks like the line of the Earls of Menteith died out as none of the 8th Earls children from his 3rd marriage ever had children. Looks like my line from Malise Graham, 1st Earl Menteith (my 17th great grandfather) is the only one left.

    My 8th great grandfather, Sir George Graham "of Netherby 2nd Baronet of Esk", had a son Henry who immigrated to America before dying in 1684 in Hartford, Connecticut. That's where my family picks up in America.

    Ha, wonder what it takes to lay claim to a vacant Earldom lol! I have one thing none of my American cousins have which is I'm a citizen of the U.K. by birth so I imagine I'm one of the few who could even claim it. Oh it's fun to dream, not that anything is left of the estates but the title could be cool.
    Last edited by anguilla1980; 2nd October 14 at 09:26 PM.

  4. #4
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    This is an interesting thread....keep us updated as to your research......

    Hawk
    Shawnee / Anishinabe and Clan Colquhoun

  5. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Hawk For This Useful Post:


  6. #5
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    Perhaps, you may have a claim. You have nothing lose.
    Mark Anthony Henderson
    Virtus et Victoria - Virtue and Victory
    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

  7. #6
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    Well I can't even seem to find online what the requirements would be, genealogically speaking, for such a claim. Nor can I find how to even initiate and proceed with a claim. I'm not sure if I would need a sponsor (like the current Duke of Montrose, the current Clan Graham chief), or what the fees and legal proceedings would even shape up to be. Then I would be worried about the political windfall of such a claim (would the Duke completely frown upon such a thing?). Heck even for that matter, another descendant standing up and countering my claim it for himself. I could just see all kinds of things like that coming out of the wood work. Not to mention that starting with the 7th Earl of Menteith they were also made the Earl of Airth, do I go after that as well to properly have both titles? It all seems overwhelmingly difficult and ridiculously selfish of such an endevour to even embark upon on the face of it. Lastly there is no small matter of how the peerage was phased out in the first place when the 8th Earl died......

    "The end of Menteith and Airth:

    His creditors compelled him to take the earldom, and in 1670, they enforced their claims. In about 1679, the Earl of Airth entered into an agreement with the Marquess of Montrose, whereby the Earldom of Menteith was to be granted to him provided that he should marry Helen or Elanor Graham, the Earl's cousins.

    The Marquess of Montrose chose not to marry one of the Earl's cousins, and instead gained the right to the earldom through Charles II, and this transfer all but extinguished the Earldom of Menteith. He divorced his wife Anna in 1685, who accused him of bigamy and adultery.[3] Although he had been dispossessed of the majority of rights to earldom over Menteith, William Graham continued as the Earl of Airth until his death in 1694, and he died without leaving any issue."

    ...and then you have this fellow who just misappropriated the title later on: "The title of Earl of Menteith was later assumed in 1744, by a William Graham, who was the great-grandson of Elizabeth Graham, the Earl's sister." Who's to say that he may not have descendants alive today, and if he did, I would think they have a better claim than I do. I'd think my claim would only even have a chance if that entire line died out, then would it it revert back to my line from the 1st Earl?

    Bottom line, I would like to just keep it simple for now. Learn what I can doing research, find out if the Clan genealogist knows about anyone from that line still being alive, etc.

    If anything I would be interested in a matriculation of arms, which seems a simpler process since as mentioned I am a U.K. citizen by birth which is one of the requirements listed on the Lord Lyon's web site. I don't mind the cost of £1,547, it seems rather trivial considering the scheme of things such as family history.
    Last edited by anguilla1980; 5th October 14 at 06:33 PM.

  8. #7
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    So interesting thing, Henry Graham, the eldest son and child of the 2nd Baronet of Esk who is my 8th great grand father who immigrated to America.....his younger brother Richard is the one who went on to become the 3rd Baronet of Esk and Viscount Preston. I wonder why Henry turned it down, or if it simply went to Richard because Henry was in America?

    Below would appear to be the arms of the Baronet of Esk, a very slight variation of the arms for the Earl of Menteith...

    Also I found this:

    "Richard Graham, who purchased the estate of Netherby and the barony of Liddell from the Earl of Cumberland, was created a baronet, in 1629, by the style of Sir Richard Graham of Esk. He fought under the royal banner at the battle of Edgehill, and was so severely wounded that he was left all night among the slain. He was succeeded by his elder son, George. His younger son, Richard, was created a baronet in 1662, and was the ancestor of the Grahams of Norton-Conyers. Sir Richardís grandson, the third baronet, was elevated, in 1680, to the peerage of Scotland, by the title of Viscount Preston. He was for a good many years ambassador to the Court of France, and subsequently Secretary of State to James VII. After the Revolution he engaged in a treasonable plot against King William, and on December 31st, 1690, along with two of his associates, Ashton and Elliot, he was captured on his way to France, with compromising letters in his possession. Ashton and the Viscount were brought to trial at the Old Bailey, on a charge of treason, and were found guilty. Ashton was executed, but Preston saved his life and was pardoned on revealing the names of his accomplices. His attainder did not affect the Scottish peerage, but on the death of his grandson, the third Viscount, the title became extinct. His extensive estates passed to his surviving aunt, the Hon. Catherine Graham, wife of Lord Widdrington. She died in 1757 without issue, and bequeathed the property to her cousin, the Rev. Robert Graham, D.D., grandson of Sir George Graham, second baronet of Esk. James Graham of Netherby, his son, was created a baronet in 1782, and was the father of the late eminent statesman, Sir James Graham, who filled a succession of important offices in the administrations of Earl Grey, Sir Robert Peel, and the Earl of Aberdeen."
    Last edited by anguilla1980; 6th October 14 at 11:22 AM.

  9. #8
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    Hi, Alex, and welcome to X Marks.
    It’s good to see that you are more interested in matriculating arms than in laying claim to the earldom of Menteith (with or without Airth), since this is a much more attainable dream.
    In order to matriculate you will need to demonstrate your line of descent (you appear to have researched this pretty thoroughly, although there are always more details one could possibly track down).
    That research might throw light on who (if anyone) is in a position to claim one or both of the earldoms.
    I am not a Graham (my Scottish ancestry is through the Lowlanders of Clan Lindsay), but I have worn the Graham of Montrose tartan.
    The connection is through the town of Grahamstown in the Eastern Cape Province.
    It was founded by Colonel John Graham of Fintry, and the Fintry branch of the clan has had a long association with the town, one of them serving as Judge-President of the Supreme Court seated there.
    You will find an article I wrote about the Fintry coat of arms here: http://www.oocities.org/wapenspreuk/GrahamE.html
    In the 1930s James Angus Graham, Lord Graham (later the 7th Duke) sent his younger sons to school in Grahamstown. The town is famous for its excellent schools, and the oldest is St Andrew’s College (where his two sons were enrolled). Graham also accepted an invitation to become Honorary Colonel of the town regiment, known as First City.
    He accepted on condition that the whole regiment go into kilts. (Before Union in 1910, a single company of First City had worn kilts in Graham of Montrose tartan.)
    I was a member of the regiment from 1969 to 1978. In that year, with great regret, I returned my kilt to regimental headquarters.
    Sadly the tartan connection has now been lost. For political reasons the regiment withdrew all the kilts it had issued to members about eight years ago and sold the lot overseas.
    Graham granted the right to members of the regiment to wear his tartan in civilian as well as military clothing.
    His son, the 8th Duke, has granted the same right to St Andrew’s. The school has a fine pipe band which travelled to Scotland this year to compete in the world championship. The pipe major (now retired from teaching at the school) has won the solo championship over a number of years.
    Of course, belonging to the Menteith branch of the clan, you will probably not be wearing the Montrose tartan.
    Regards,
    Mike
    Last edited by Mike_Oettle; 6th October 14 at 01:03 PM.
    The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life.
    [Proverbs 14:27]

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92GTA View Post
    After a quick read online and it looks like the line of the Earls of Menteith died out as none of the 8th Earls children from his 3rd marriage ever had children. Looks like my line from Malise Graham, 1st Earl Menteith (my 17th great grandfather) is the only one left.
    Be that as it may, descent from anyone earlier than William, 7th Earl of Menteith and 1st Earl of Airth, is irrelevant to a current claim. William resigned the ancient earldom and was reinvested by a new charter of King Charles I (1644), succession to which was limited to William's heirs-male. The 7th earl had only one son who left issue (John, Lord Kinpoint), who had only one son, William (8th earl), who had no legitimate issue. The 1644 peerage became extinct at that point.

    There were claims put forth in the 19th century to the old peerage of which Malise was the first holder, but the Committee on Privileges of the House of Lords declined to recognize either of the claimants. Source of all the foregoing is Balfour Paul's Scots Peerage.

    My 8th great grandfather, Sir George Graham "of Netherby 2nd Baronet of Esk", had a son Henry who immigrated to America before dying in 1684 in Hartford, Connecticut. That's where my family picks up in America.

    Ha, wonder what it takes to lay claim to a vacant Earldom lol! I have one thing none of my American cousins have which is I'm a citizen of the U.K. by birth so I imagine I'm one of the few who could even claim it. Oh it's fun to dream, not that anything is left of the estates but the title could be cool.
    Being a citizen of the UK, by birth or otherwise, doesn't give you any better claim than anyone else. It's purely a matter of genealogy. You don't say whether your Graham descent is entirely in the male line or not, but in any case, since the claimant to the Graham of Esk baronetcy was not among the parties disputing the Menteith succession before the House of Lords, it seems unlikely that descent through the Esk baronets would put you in the running for the peerage.

  11. #10
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    Great info, thanks!!!!!

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