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  1. #1
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    An unholy union?

    Does anyone know what the heck this is?

    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MacDonald-Cla...9d4929b&_uhb=1

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	$T2eC16Z,!yEE9s5jGJo)BQodOsf3ng~~60_3.JPG 
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    It looks like a Campbell boar's head clan badge with the Macdonald slogan "Per mare per terras". Any ideas on how such a thing could come to be manufactured? Is this the "give peace a chance" clan badge?
    Last edited by Nathan; 8th January 14 at 03:24 PM. Reason: posted the pic so the thread would be useful after the auction closes.
    Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
    High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
    “Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.

  2. #2
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    Nathan,

    I have no idea why anyone would do something like that. If it was an attempt at 'give peace a chance' I don't think it works. I understand your outrage, my friend (Glen Coe...).
    Allen Sinclair, FSA Scot
    Eastern Region Vice President
    North Carolina Commissioner
    Clan Sinclair Association (USA)

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  4. #3
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    As far as I know the boar's head (or variation thereof) is used by 5 or 6 different Clan Chiefs.

    "Outrage"? Are there not enough things broken in the world today that need fixing, that we have to fan the flames of hatred for an event that happened outside of our control, in another time and another place?

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  6. #4
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    The assorted Scottish Clans have done really well, when all things are considered, to bury the hatchet in some far off peat bog and not in each others heads for the last couple of centuries. That does not mean that we should forget our history, but Scotland is a better place by far now, than once it was. Perfect? No.

    On your point Nathan, considering what Clan MacLeod and Clan Donald did to each other over the centuries, I am surprised that you are even considering wearing a style of jacket that was worn by The MacLeod of MacLeod. Remember, what Clan Donald did to Clan Campbell after the Battle of Inverlochy. One must be a bit careful, if one wants to be consistant, where one pins their particular Clan loyalties to their histories, when wearing rose tinted spectacles, where Scottish Clans are concerned.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 8th January 14 at 04:14 AM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    The assorted Scottish Clans have done really well, when all things are considered, to bury the hatchet in some far off peat bog and not in each others heads for the last couple of centuries. That does not mean that we should forget our history, but Scotland is a better place by far now, than once it was. Perfect? No.

    On your point Nathan, considering what Clan MacLeod and Clan Donald did to each other over the centuries, I am surprised that you are even considering wearing a style of jacket that was worn by The MacLeod of MacLeod. Remember, what Clan Donald did to Clan Campbell after the Battle of Inverlochy. One must be a bit careful, if one wants to be consistant, where one pins their particular Clan loyalties to their histories, when wearing rose tinted spectacles, where Scottish Clans are concerned.
    Some interesting points raised.

    Let me clarify that my "outrage" is strictly tongue in cheek. I have no actual animosity toward modern Campbells and enjoy speaking to some of them on this forum daily. This wouldn't be the place for that and to boil blood over an incident that occurred so long ago would be baseless hatred and the world will not advance if we don't leave lots of hatchets in peat bogs. I do engage in some good natured ribbing with Campbells when the opportunity presents itself but unless someone is being really insensitive regarding the history, I see no reason why we can't be the best of friends.

    Certainly, most of Highland history was brutal. I'm well aware of our on again, off again feuds with the MacLeods, the MacLeans and even sometimes Chattan, especially the MacIntoshes, but Clan Campbell's role in Scottish history is rather unique. Its leadership systematically dismantled the power of it's neighbours especially the Lordship of the Isles and helped to put a lot of nails in the coffin of Gaelic culture for their own narrow benefit. It did so by taking advantage of the financial hardship of others and by becoming the muscle of the English in the Highlands. The thing is, the Machiavellian approach worked. The sons of Somerled no longer control Argyll, Lord Macdonald is a hotelier and the Duke of Argyll has titles as long as your arm and lives in Inveraray castle. But alas, history is never so simplistic.

    We can't just blame the Campbells or anyone else for the downfall of our status. We have to account for gambling and alcohol addictions, the rash behaviour of certain Macdonald chiefs, backing losing horses, infighting and other factors so I don't want to overstate it.

    As an aside though, unlike the usual horrible violence of that time and place, Glencoe was unique compared to Inverlochy because it was murder under trust. All that notwithstanding, there's still no reason to fan the old flames of hatred or to hold my contemporaries responsible for the actions of Glenlyon and his band of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Especially when we consider the roles that were played by the King, Duncanson, Dalrymple etc...

    In fact, my local Highland regiment, The Cape Breton Highlanders, in which the overwhelming majority of soldiers carry Clan Donald names, are the sister regiment to the Argylls and wear the same uniform and kilt as they do. Ironic indeed.

    I also have a strong compliment of Thompson in my bloodline. In fact, I have both an uncle and and brother named Thompson in honour of this connection. Thompson/MacTavish is closely connected to the Clan Campbell.

    Regarding the MacLeod, my direct family comes from the Isle of Lewis so we've learned to live with MacLeods centuries ago. I also can't help it if the MacLeod was a snazzy dresser. The jacket looks good! The Duke of Argyll's salmon buttons are pretty enviable too while we're on the subject.

    At the end of the day, though, Clan Campbell and Clan Donald are rivals. I don't think anyone should take that to the point of calling us "enemies" anymore and I don't think the rivalry should even approach anything like a UK football rivalry in terms of seriousness.

    I'm not going to delve any deeper into the historic rivalry between these clans because this subforum is about heraldry.

    Does anyone know the origin of a clan badge with a boar's head and the Macdonald motto? I'm honestly very curious.
    Last edited by Nathan; 9th January 14 at 04:00 PM.
    Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
    High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
    “Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.

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  10. #6
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    A shot across the bow, fellows. Without real care, this could go south rather badly.

    Father Bill for the Forum Moderators.
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster, lover of God, people (most of them!) dogs, joy, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, traditionalist, bon-vivant, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    The assorted Scottish Clans have done really well, when all things are considered, to bury the hatchet in some far off peat bog and not in each others heads for the last couple of centuries. That does not mean that we should forget our history, but Scotland is a better place by far now, than once it was. Perfect? No.

    On your point Nathan, considering what Clan MacLeod and Clan Donald did to each other over the centuries, I am surprised that you are even considering wearing a style of jacket that was worn by The MacLeod of MacLeod. Remember, what Clan Donald did to Clan Campbell after the Battle of Inverlochy. One must be a bit careful, if one wants to be consistant, where one pins their particular Clan loyalties to their histories, when wearing rose tinted spectacles, where Scottish Clans are concerned.
    Well said, Jock.

  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
    Some interesting points raised.

    Let me clarify that my "outrage" is strictly tongue in cheek. I have no actual animosity toward modern Campbells and enjoy speaking to some of them on this forum daily. This wouldn't be the place for that and to boil blood over an incident that occurred so long ago would be baseless hatred and the world will not advance if we don't leave lots of hatchets in peat bogs. I do engage in some good natured ribbing with Campbells when the opportunity presents itself but unless someone is being really insensitive regarding the history, I see no reason why we can't be the best of friends.

    Certainly, most of Highland history was brutal. I'm well aware of our on again, off again feuds with the MacLeods, the MacLeans and even sometimes Chattan, especially the MacIntoshes, but Clan Campbell's role in Scottish history is rather unique. Its leadership systematically dismantled the power of it's neighbours especially the Lordship of the Isles and helped to put a lot of nails in the coffin of Gaelic culture for their own narrow benefit. It did so by taking advantage of the financial hardship of others and by becoming the muscle of the English in the Highlands. The thing is, the Machiavellian approach worked. The sons of Somerled no longer control Argyll, Lord Macdonald is a hotelier and the Duke of Argyll has titles as long as your arm and lives in Inveraray castle. But alas, history is never so simplistic.

    We can't just blame the Campbells or anyone else for the downfall of our status. We have to account for gambling and alcohol addictions, the rash behaviour of certain Macdonald chiefs, backing losing horses, infighting and other factors so I don't want to overstate it.

    As an aside though, unlike the usual horrible violence of that time and place, Glencoe was unique compared to Inverlochy because it was murder under trust. All that notwithstanding, there's still no reason to fan the old flames of hatred or to hold my contemporaries responsible for the actions of Glenlyon and his band of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Especially when we consider the roles that were played by the King, Duncanson, Dalrymple etc...

    In fact, my local Highland regiment, The Cape Breton Highlanders, in which the overwhelming majority of soldiers carry Clan Donald names, are the sister regiment to the Argylls and wear the same uniform and kilt as they do. Ironic indeed.

    I also have a strong compliment of Thompson in my bloodline. In fact, I have both an uncle and and brother named Thompson in honour of this connection. Thompson/MacTavish is closely connected to the Clan Campbell.

    Regarding the MacLeod, my direct family comes from the Isle of Lewis so we've learned to live with MacLeods centuries ago. I also can't help it if the MacLeod was a snazzy dresser. The jacket looks good! The Duke of Argyll's salmon buttons are pretty enviable too while we're on the subject.

    At the end of the day, though, Clan Campbell and Clan Donald are rivals. I don't think anyone should take that to the point of calling us "enemies" any more and I don't think the rivalry should even approach anything like a UK football rivalry in terms of seriousness.

    I'm not going to delve any deeper into the historic rivalry between these clans because this subforum is about heraldry.

    Does anyone know the origin of a clan badge with a boar's head and the Macdonald motto? I'm honestly very curious.
    Very well said, Nathan.

  14. #9
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    Under my roof, there are Campbells and MacEwans. Only occasionally do the hatchets come out.

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  16. #10
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    It was not my intent to create a stir. Perhaps I should have said that I understand how some might find this badge to be in poor taste (and not added the unnecessary historical reference). I will try to choose my words more carefully in my future postings. BTW, one of my good friends is a Campbell (I don't hold it against him, usually ).
    Allen Sinclair, FSA Scot
    Eastern Region Vice President
    North Carolina Commissioner
    Clan Sinclair Association (USA)

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