Clan societies in UK

[Jock Scot]

My wife and I have been and still are, friends of the fairly recent head of the North American Clan MacLeod Society(I think I have the title correct). He and his wife have been our friends for too many years to count and stay with us for a few days when they are"over". I think that they, with other MacLeods come over to Skye to hold their "Clan Gathering" at Dunvegan every five years. They are always amazed that the "British MacLeods" are rarely seen in numbers. We are always kindly invited to attend and to accompany them, but the event holds no interest for us. Looking at their itinerary, it is always way so over the top for us so we politely decline. The reason we give is that Dunvegan is not the same as it was when Chief John------who was a tad more than an acquaintance to us----- was about and besides, the salmon may be running!

Many times over the years we have discussed with them the doings of the various Macleod societies around the world and there is no doubt about it, they, the North American Clan society, put a lot of time, effort and money into doing good things, particularly for MacLeods. They cannot understand why the UK Clan Society is so undersubscribed and seemingly disinterested and always has been. After much discussion over many years and many drams we have come to the conclusion that the Scottish(British) just do things in their more low key way or, in modern parlance "less in your face" way.

I think the same holds for the differences between the North American(Canada and USA) way and the Native Scottish way. There is no doubt in my mind that the two sides of the Atlantic see and do things very, very differently, as this website demonstrates almost daily.

[FossilHunter]

You are quite right, of course.

But, as things appear to us in Scotland, there tends to be a way that is recognised as 'North American' in the same way that there is something equally recognisable as 'Australian and New Zealand' in views or attitudes. There is distinct similarity in the Canadian and American ways and views that are different from the others.

This is an observation only, and must not be taken as a slight or in any way derogatory.

In my clan association's activities, the American (ie, the independant USA organisation) does things quite separately from the home (ie, Scottish) lot, of which the Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders are branches.

The American association has its own set of rules, principles, aims, etc, and its own president, vice-president, etc, and acknowledges the chief as simply that, the chief - he has no part to play with either influence or advice, and no status other than titular chief. They organise their own programme of events and activities (even when attending Gatherings at the homelands in Scotland) that exclude the other nations.

As the Canadian branch is so small, and as it is so convenient to do so, it attaches itself to the American association and joins in with their gatherings and similar activities. Similarities in needs and interests are naturally going to follow.

When it comes to our membership numbers, Americans make up more than the rest of the world combined, so taking a majority rule approach is easy to understand. But it is a pity that they see themselves as independent, and operate in a kind of isolationist way. The Aussies and Kiwis do things as if they are coming home, and get stuck in.

I have heard the chief say on more than one occasion, that he fears the dwindling membership in the UK (particularly in Scotland itself) will eventually see the original clan association fail at home. The size and wealth of the American association (which is run as if it is a large commercial corporation) will be all that remains.

Ours is a relatively small clan, but the chief and his family, along with representatives of the cadet families, provide officers of the association, and clansmen make up the council and membership. The chief (although elected) quite rightly is chairman. Consequently, the clan still operates much in a way that would be recognised by long-gone generations, so it would be sad to see this dwindle to nothing.

As they already operate independently, our American cousins see nothing worrying in the failure of the original association, and the idea that it would go from a virtually still functioning clan to a same-name membership club seems of no consequence. Nothing would change on their side of the Atlantic.

The North Americans (both Canadians and Americans) are not wrong as such, but their shared different views and attitudes are seen unintentional risk to the clan's survival. There is irony here, as the whole point of the clan association is to ensure its preservation as a clan.

All of which goes to make me wonder what the North American view of Sotland is. Looking out from the inside is quite different from looking in from the outside, and it helps to know what those outside are looking at - or hope to see.

Some of these issues may not be purely cultural. It’s possible that there are legal issues involved in running a non-profit organization in the different countries that contributes to a relative lack of cooperation.

[Troglodyte]

Some of these issues may not be purely cultural. It’s possible that there are legal issues involved in running a non-profit organization in the different countries that contributes to a relative lack of cooperation.

I have no doubt that is true.

However, my point about how my clan association is run, was to show that only American clansmen want to do things on their own and separately from the rest of the clan - the others (Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, etc) are members of the original Scottish association.

There is no practical reason why the American association should be a completely separate and independent organisation, operating for American clansmen only. The message this gives others is that they either see themselves as the true clan, or not as part of the real clan at all. This, naturally, engenders different ideas of what it means to be a clan member.

The need to do things (the same things, for the most part) separately from the rest of the clan shows a distinctly different set of ideas, principles, needs and desires at a clan level in America. I guess this is why the question at the start of this thread was posed - and which might have been asked in these terms: 'Why do Scots at home in Scotland do Scottish cultural things differently?'

Our clan association is all about the preservation of its history, cuture and traditions, and the wearing of the clan tartans is only 'encouraged' as there is no obligation to do so. Having a great selection of kilts in different tartans is an exceptionally rare thing in Scotland.

I once heard my chief say at one of our Gatherings when the American group took themselves off on their own, that 'They always want a pageant...' It seems that the history/clan culture thing is all very well for the others, but our American kin prefer to dress-up and have a parade. Tartan banners and all.

I cannot speak for any other clan, but that's not our way - which is what I think Kilted 2000 has noticed and so poses the question.

My impression is that what and how we do clan things in Scotland is a disappointment to our American visitors much of the time. A kind of 'Is this all there is..?' mood prevails.

[Troglodyte]

There has been a development with my clan since my last reply to this thread, that is relevant.

This coming year, 2025, will be the millenium or the 1,000th anniversary since the clan's traditional founding. Naturally enough, plans to celebrate the occasion have been in action for a while, and are due to centre around the chief's castle as usual.

Being somewhat involved myself, I have been keeping a closer eye on progress than many might, so I was astonished to receive information from the American association (which operates independently and separately from the rest of the clan) that they have organised their own separate gathering at the castle, announced dates, and are taking bookings.

A recent chat with the chief had him telling me it was all rather awkward (mild understatement, this), as it takes into no account the arrangements we is Scotland are making, and the tricky position he is now in. It seems the American association expect the chief to fall into line, play ball, and have 'open doors' for the week they are in Scotland.

The open doors thing is the chief's usual hospitality, and it has always been the way, but this secondary American-only Gathering can be seen as a good illustration of why there appears to be a difference between American clan activities and those in the homeland, that Kilted2000 has noticed.

Two things will come from this, as I see it. One will be a disappointing turn-out for the clan's proper Gathering, for the Americans, who normally make up good numbers, will be absent; and the the Americans will get entirely the wrong impression of how the clan functions at home in Scotland - if it is seen to function at all.

It's all a bit puzzling to us.

Did we upset or disappoint our American kin so much last time that they now no longer want to come to our Gatherings, or have they got so fed up with waiting for the finished programme of events to be announced that they have gone off and done their own thing?

Our association has always operated as a kind of clan-themed history society, with its traditions, culture and historical legacy being the main motivation. Pageant has never had a place, and the local Highland games are usually enough to satisfy needs in this direction. As regards tartan, the romantic nonsense that surrounds all that has always been well-understood, and, officially, the association only encourages the wearing - it is by no means obligatory - and only a small proportion actually do.

Other than having pipers to provide thrilling sound at the opening, and sometimes a ceilidh on the last evening, we have nothing in the way of parade or performance. Our way is to have displays, exhibitions, talks and demonstrations on such topics as recent archaeological findings at the castle, the latest from the DNA project, and suchlike.

But I am keen to see what our American cousins get up to, when they have no natives around to spoil their fun.

[Jock Scot]

There has been a development with my clan since my last reply to this thread, that is relevant.

This coming year, 2025, will be the millenium or the 1,000th anniversary since the clan's traditional founding. Naturally enough, plans to celebrate the occasion have been in action for a while, and are due to centre around the chief's castle as usual.

Being somewhat involved myself, I have been keeping a closer eye on progress than many might, so I was astonished to receive information from the American association (which operates independently and separately from the rest of the clan) that they have organised their own separate gathering at the castle, announced dates, and are taking bookings.

A recent chat with the chief had him telling me it was all rather awkward (mild understatement, this), as it takes into no account the arrangements we is Scotland are making, and the tricky position he is now in. It seems the American association expect the chief to fall into line, play ball, and have 'open doors' for the week they are in Scotland.




The open doors thing is the chief's usual hospitality, and it has always been the way, but this secondary American-only Gathering can be seen as a good illustration of why there appears to be a difference between American clan activities and those in the homeland, that Kilted2000 has noticed.

Two things will come from this, as I see it. One will be a disappointing turn-out for the clan's proper Gathering, for the Americans, who normally make up good numbers, will be absent; and the the Americans will get entirely the wrong impression of how the clan functions at home in Scotland - if it is seen to function at all.

It's all a bit puzzling to us.

Did we upset or disappoint our American kin so much last time that they now no longer want to come to our Gatherings, or have they got so fed up with waiting for the finished programme of events to be announced that they have gone off and done their own thing?

Our association has always operated as a kind of clan-themed history society, with its traditions, culture and historical legacy being the main motivation. Pageant has never had a place, and the local Highland games are usually enough to satisfy needs in this direction. As regards tartan, the romantic nonsense that surrounds all that has always been well-understood, and, officially, the association only encourages the wearing - it is by no means obligatory - and only a small proportion actually do.

Other than having pipers to provide thrilling sound at the opening, and sometimes a ceilidh on the last evening, we have nothing in the way of parade or performance. Our way is to have displays, exhibitions, talks and demonstrations on such topics as recent archaeological findings at the castle, the latest from the DNA project, and suchlike.

But I am keen to see what our American cousins get up to, when they have no natives around to spoil their fun.

Oh Dear.

[Wareyin]

Two things will come from this, as I see it. One will be a disappointing turn-out for the clan's proper Gathering, for the Americans, who normally make up good numbers, will be absent; and the the Americans will get entirely the wrong impression of how the clan functions at home in Scotland - if it is seen to function at all.

It's all a bit puzzling to us.

Did we upset or disappoint our American kin so much last time that they now no longer want to come to our Gatherings, or have they got so fed up with waiting for the finished programme of events to be announced that they have gone off and done their own thing?

Our association has always operated as a kind of clan-themed history society, with its traditions, culture and historical legacy being the main motivation. Pageant has never had a place, and the local Highland games are usually enough to satisfy needs in this direction. As regards tartan, the romantic nonsense that surrounds all that has always been well-understood, and, officially, the association only encourages the wearing - it is by no means obligatory - and only a small proportion actually do.

Other than having pipers to provide thrilling sound at the opening, and sometimes a ceilidh on the last evening, we have nothing in the way of parade or performance. Our way is to have displays, exhibitions, talks and demonstrations on such topics as recent archaeological findings at the castle, the latest from the DNA project, and suchlike.

But I am keen to see what our American cousins get up to, when they have no natives around to spoil their fun.

I wonder if the American group is even aware that you are holding a different gathering? Is that something that has even been mentioned? Have the American group's leaders been asked why they have organized their own events? I suspect that the average member of the American Society wouldn't even think that their event wasn't the same as the Clan's.

As for pageantry, if the Americans are used to seeing that at home I can also see why paying the thousands of dollars to visit Scotland and getting much more subdued displays and archeological talks would be a let down. It might even be so subdued that they don't recognize it as a celebration at all.

This is all speculation, of course.

[Jock Scot]

I wonder if the American group is even aware that you are holding a different gathering? Is that something that has even been mentioned? Have the American group's leaders been asked why they have organized their own events? I suspect that the average member of the American Society wouldn't even think that their event wasn't the same as the Clan's.

As for pageantry, if the Americans are used to seeing that at home I can also see why paying the thousands of dollars to visit Scotland and getting much more subdued displays and archeological talks would be a let down. It might even be so subdued that they don't recognize it as a celebration at all.

This is all speculation, of course.

Well yes, it could be speculation, but somehow I suspect the Clan Chief knew the date of the celebration several years ago and his Clansmen in the vicinity would have been well aware of the date more than a wee while ago. Somehow I doubt that those outwith these shores, with their enthusiastic Clan interests would have been unaware of the arranged date.

[Wareyin]

Well yes, it could be speculation, but somehow I suspect the Clan Chief knew the date of the celebration several years ago and his Clansmen in the vicinity would have been well aware of the date more than a wee while ago. Somehow I doubt that those outwith these shores, with their enthusiastic Clan interests would have been unaware of the arranged date.

I didn't think the date was in question, but rather there actually being an organized celebration. It rather sounds as though displays and talks and such with no pageantry is not a celebration, any more than visiting a museum would be.

My clan celebrated their 1,000 year anniversary a few years ago. I wasn't aware of any event, gathering, speech, etc that was put on by the clan itself. But I was only a member of an American "society" and not privy to communication from the actual clan.

[Jock Scot]

I didn't think the date was in question, but rather there actually being an organized celebration. It rather sounds as though displays and talks and such with no pageantry is not a celebration, any more than visiting a museum would be.

My clan celebrated their 1,000 year anniversary a few years ago. I wasn't aware of any event, gathering, speech, etc that was put on by the clan itself. But I was only a member of an American "society" and not privy to communication from the actual clan.

Celebrations come in many different forms and the Clan Chief is perfectly entitled to choose the way its going to be done. It is not for others to comment. His choice may not suit everyone, but it is his choice to make.

[Troglodyte]

I wonder if the American group is even aware that you are holding a different gathering? Is that something that has even been mentioned? Have the American group's leaders been asked why they have organized their own events? I suspect that the average member of the American Society wouldn't even think that their event wasn't the same as the Clan's.

As for pageantry, if the Americans are used to seeing that at home I can also see why paying the thousands of dollars to visit Scotland and getting much more subdued displays and archeological talks would be a let down. It might even be so subdued that they don't recognize it as a celebration at all.

This is all speculation, of course.

That's just the thing - they were fully aware..!

I know, because I was the one who informed them of the potential dates for our Gathering, and had been acting as unofficial liaison officer to keep the Americans informed of the clan's plans.

Which is why their own separate programme and timing is all the more surprising.

When I say there is no pageantry, what I mean is it is unlike what I see at Games in the USA, where the clans form up and parade and shout their slogans and all that kind of thing. We have no blue-faced, great kilt wearing and claymore-weilding characters. And, is has to be admitted, many in Scotland find the Kirkin' o' the Tartan comical.

That kind of parading and dressing-up fun is great, and I discourage no-one if that's their thing, but our Gatherings are more authentic and genuine in their real Highland cultural style. Our Gatherings usually take the form of an initial mustering in the grounds of the chief's castle and a procession led by pipers to the main entrance, where the chief and his family are waiting in welcome.

Formalities are gone through, castle doors are thrown open, and the events get underway. There is only so much that can be done within the castle, but these tend to be things that cannot be found elsewhere - much of it is very museum-like. Outside, it is more what you might expect, with all kinds of entertainments of the festival kind. In addition, the usually three-day Gathering is timed to fit in with the local Highland Games, and these are arranged to be part of the Gathering. Coach-trip visits to significant locations for informal ceremonies or presentations also feature.

Sometimes it is the second night, sometimes the last night, but there is usually a ceilidh of sorts - either formal where splendid ancient artefact-style Highland dress gets pulled out of the attic for the occasion, and it's a proper sit-down meal, or it may be a more casual buffet and less dressing-up. We like to vary these things, but we party big-time, Highland style and it's a great atmosphere - sadly, though (at least at the Gatherings I have attended), our American contingent always leaves as the music starts. No-one understands why.

I believe you are right about the average American member's awareness. I have long had the impression that the American association regards itself as The Clan, and they are aware that there may be some others with the same name in Scotland and possibly elsewhere. But that these have no relevance - as I said before, the chief is regarded as such in title only: the real chief is the American assocoation's president for that year, with badges, chains of office, feathers and all.

What I hear a surprising amount of from our American membership, is the comparison between members of who is a truer or more genuine member of the clan. DNA testing has done much to back up some claims, with results 'proving' they are related to the chief sometime in the past 15 generations or so. This baffles us back at home, where such things have no real value - as everyone has a connection of some sort.

Being a member of a clan, especially these days, is much more about attitude and sense of belonging than of surname. If you accept the chief as the chief, you are a clansman. Simple as that. And this is why our clan's objectives opens the membership to anyone who has a genuine interest in the clan and it's history.

It's a good thing, too! Our long-serving association committee secretary has the name of our clan's arch-enemy neighbouring clan, whose chief and family are often guests of honour at our Gatherings. I often wonder what our ancestors of 300 years ago would make of that.

And it's good in another way. The DNA programme has revealed that what has alwyas been regarded as a branch of the clan originating in the opposite side of Scotland, but with the reason for the separation being a mystery, has, in fact, no connection at all. It seems they adopted the Aglicised version of our name as theirs sounds similar in Gaelic. Strictly speaking, these are not clan at all, and a good chunk of the American association's members descend from these mystery folk - and many now resent the DNA findings. It is only slight, but I have become aware of a them-and-us difference forming.

But, as a clan back home in Scotland, we are indifferent. As I said about our clan's membership conditions, these mystery folk meet the requirements and are perfectly accepted - most importantly by the chief. Indeed, it can be seen as the same as in the old days when wandering people would seek out the protection of a welcoming clan chief, and would be absorbed seemlessly into the new clan within a generation.

It's a great pity our American kin see themselves as, and so want to be, separate from the clan still in Scotland.