X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Celtic Croft website Celtic Corner website Houston Kiltmakers

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14
  1. #1
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    10,594
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Jacobite shirt origins?

    It's been puzzling me pretty much since I started kiltwearing: where did the "Jacobite" shirt come from?

    One thing we can be fairly certain of, it didn't come from Jacobites.

    Because no such shirts existed in 18th century Scotland, or most probably in 18th century anywhere.

    People often connect them with Hollywood, specifically Brigadoon and the scores of Pirate films made in the 1920s through 1950s.

    What makes me bring this topic up now is that I'm reading the story of the 1889 baseball season and a number of clubs wore shirts much like Hollywood/Brigadoon/pirate/Jacobite shirts back then.

    The baseball shirts don't have the huge puffy sleeves, but they have the same lace-up fronts, and widely spread collars.

    As far as the timing goes I'm not sure how late baseball clubs wore those, but it just might have been late enough to dovetail with the early Hollywood Pirate films. Is there a connexion? Who can say. Hollywood costumers have always loved laces and filled their historical films with laceup shirts and waistcoats and bodices and dresses and wrist-things.

    As to how these shirts became associated with kiltwearing, as far as I can tell it started in the USA, where Highland Dress is often associated with Colonial times in the popular imagination. (Hollywood uses those Brigadoon/Pirate shirts in Colonial films too.)

    Anyhow here's a late-19th century Boston baseball shirt, Pirate style shirts in Anne of the Indies and Brigadoon, and for a bonus, from The Sea Hawk, the sort of waistcoat often associated with these shirts (yes it laces up too).

    Last edited by OC Richard; 12th May 23 at 03:07 PM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  2. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Join Date
    22nd October 17
    Location
    Beijing
    Posts
    540
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Sea Hawk vest strongly resembles the "swordsman's vest" that is often sold to wear with your Jacobite shirt. They do look neat together, but it is pretty clearly a Hollywood/costume trend rather than historical look.

    It's also interesting to see how simple the black and white images look next to the astonishing Technicolor of Brigadoon. I had to do a double take, to make sure there were actually kilts in the picture, since there is so much competing color--not a problem I usually encounter in real life kiltwearing situations.

    Andrew

  4. #3
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,530
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A really good question Richard and one that seems to have no simple answer. Ost of the Brigadoon shirts seem to have been the open to the waist type.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	article-0-00A3048F000004B0-36_468x349.jpg 
Views:	27 
Size:	77.3 KB 
ID:	42671

    Quite where the pirate shirts came from still escapes me but Hollywood must be a contender for the naughty step.
    Last edited by figheadair; 13th May 23 at 05:27 AM.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    30th January 14
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    749
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    As to how these shirts became associated with kiltwearing, as far as I can tell it started in the USA, where Highland Dress is often associated with Colonial times in the popular imagination.
    I think this is precisely it. In Colonial times, for those that could afford tailored clothes, the frilly, puffy, blousy shirts were the style. For those that could not, one size fits all, and if you weren't a mountain of a man your shirt was loose and baggy all around - and didn't have buttons. People put on a kilt and think they've donned a 150 y/o garment and have to otherwise dress accordingly (including strapping on a claymore or backsword and...).

    Reenactors often mistakenly want their weapons and gear to look like it's 100-200 years old. Why? It didn't look like it was 100-200 years old back then. But I think it's that mindset that begat "weathered" tartans. Again, the desire to appear to be from "back then".

    Of course Hollywood and kilt-hire influence can't be completely discounted.
    Tulach Ard

  6. The Following User Says 'Aye' to MacKenzie For This Useful Post:


  7. #5
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    10,594
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For comparison here's an actual 18th century shirt.

    No huge puffy sleeves.

    No laces.

    No widely-spread pointed collar.

    They had a button at the neck.

    The neck opening was large enough to get your head through, and didn't go halfway down your chest.

    What they did have, that modern shirts don't, are inserts of extra fabric in the armpits to give extra freedom of motion.

    Last edited by OC Richard; 14th May 23 at 04:24 PM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  8. The Following 4 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  9. #6
    Join Date
    21st March 17
    Location
    San Diego, USA
    Posts
    956
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The 1993 film, Hocus Pocus, has one of the main characters wearing a similar shirt in what’s supposed to be 1693 in Salem, Massachusetts (before he is hexed into a cat).

    His is super loose but he had just woken up in the scene he’s wearing it so presumably it would have had other layers on top later in the day.



    Last edited by FossilHunter; 16th May 23 at 08:45 AM.
    Descendant of the Gillises and MacDonalds of North Morar.

  10. #7
    Join Date
    30th January 14
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    749
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    For comparison here's an actual 18th century shirt.

    No huge puffy sleeves.

    No laces.

    No widely-spread pointed collar.

    They had a button at the neck.

    The neck opening was large enough to get your head through, and didn't go halfway down your chest.
    For comparison.

    https://witness2fashion.wordpress.co...s-1700s-1900s/
    Tulach Ard

  11. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to MacKenzie For This Useful Post:


  12. #8
    Join Date
    27th October 09
    Location
    Kerrville, Texas
    Posts
    5,694
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    For comparison here's an actual 18th century shirt.

    No huge puffy sleeves.

    No laces.

    No widely-spread pointed collar.

    They had a button at the neck.

    The neck opening was large enough to get your head through, and didn't go halfway down your chest.

    What they did have, that modern shirts don't, are inserts of extra fabric in the armpits to give extra freedom of motion.
    I'm sure the Hollywood interpretation is a fanciful combination of details from many different centuries and regions. Long before I took up wearing the kilt, my wife had made me a shirt from a "Folkwear" pattern called the Missouri River Boatman's Shirt. It is supposedly based on paintings from the latter half of the 1800s, including the Civil War. It is made mostly as you describe, especially with the triangular underarm gussets (which I find to be awkward as hell in practical use). But rather than a buttoned collar, it has simple fabric ties to close the collar at the throat. Perhaps the Hollywood interpretation with laces took some partial inspiration from this style but with further adaptations for the full laces? Who knows...

  13. #9
    Panache's Avatar
    Panache is offline
    Retired Forum Manager
    Gentleman of X Marks

    Join Date
    24th February 06
    Location
    San Jose, California
    Posts
    9,713
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Richard,

    I'm sure you don't need to look much further than Hollywood.

    These pirate shirts give the costume dept. a chance to show off a "manly" chest and create a v shape that matches the idealized v shape of the leading man's torso (think Kirk Douglas' physique as a young actor). They are flattering to actors that may not have that idealized v shape and billowy can hide a bit of a paunch if your leading man is getting older. They also flow dramatically in the wind and in motion and allow freedom of motion in a fight sequence.

    And....

    They are actually pretty comfortable when exerting yourself (air flow).


    And... (if we can step off our sartorial / historical high horses for a moment) ...

    They look cool! Think of Wesley as the Dread Pirate Roberts in Princess Bride...Wesley looks cool

    They aren't historic, lots of people at the Renaissance Faire, Highland games, and Scottish Country Dancers wear them today.

    They aren't bad, they are just costume-like.

    As long as no one tries to fob them off as historic, I think people should have the opportunity to let loose their inner Hollywood Swashbuckler


    "Now out swords and to work withal!"

    Cheers

    Jamie
    Last edited by Panache; 25th May 23 at 06:53 AM.
    -See it there, a white plume
    Over the battle - A diamond in the ash
    Of the ultimate combustion-My panache

    Edmond Rostand

  14. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to Panache For This Useful Post:


  15. #10
    Join Date
    30th January 14
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    749
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    ... my wife had made me a shirt from a "Folkwear" pattern called the Missouri River Boatman's Shirt. It is supposedly based on paintings from the latter half of the 1800s, including the Civil War.

    Very much like "Mississippi Boatman by George Caleb Bingham, 1850" from the article I linked above.

    Tulach Ard

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0