"Military Officer's sporrans" on Ebay

[OC Richard]

Wasn't sure what forum this should be in, but here goes...

I follow kilt-related things on Ebay regularly and a constant irritation is purely civilian things being sold as military things.

The sellers nearly always go one better: the things are not just listed as "military" but "military officer's". A third level is often added, that being a specific war, usually the Boer War (for some unknown reason).

Exhibit 1:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOTTISH-MIL...item20fb2f07cf

Exhibit 2:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOTTISH-MIL...item20fb2f07cb

And it's not just sporrans, but kilts and jackets...

Exhibit 3:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Unique-...item234ff5a41a

(The jacket is not unique, nor military, but a common civilian pattern.)

[auld argonian]

I guessing that we can write this off to either pure ignorance or some "enterprising" individual trying to hype the goods hoping for a bigger cash out on ebay.

Face it, your average schmoe just doesn't know what the ins and outs of kilt related accoutrements are.

Best,

AA

[plaid preacher]

Richard, two of the three I can kind of understand .... kind of. The first sporran seems to have a name and rank written inside it and so the auction site just leaped to the conclusion it was military; although in no way resembling a military pattern sporran. (it is, however, a beautiful sporran). And the tag inside the jacket does say "military tailor". Now again, there is a gigantic leap made that therefore every jacket made by this tailor was for the military. So I can understand what is going on. It is still incorrect ... but understandable. As for the second sporran, the closest I can come is that it appears to have been repaired by what we used to call "gun tape" when I was in the service.

[Reiver]

By this measure all of my Scots gear is military. Pretty ebay typical but interesting nonetheless.
1st sporran is interesting but it looks a bit the worse for wear from the backside. The name/date (Nov 2000) doesn't quite match up with the look/age of the piece.
Pig in a poke.

[OC Richard]

It can get confusing with Highland Dress in particular because Thomas Gordon & Son made kilts and jackets for both the civilian trade and for the Army.

In fact they often made doublets precisely like those for the Army, for civilian pipe bands. These can only be distinguished by the buttons... but, missing the buttons, it can't be told unless there's an Army label.

With kilts, sporrans, and the like the same firms often made things for the Army and civilian trade but the patterns were clearly different.

Anyhow those three listings in the OP are obvious civilian items (obvious to me anyhow). It is strange than a military man would write his name and rank on his mufti.

[Jock Scot]

It is quite possible, probable even, a civilian sporran will have name and rank of the owner on and it is very likely that a tailor that made, or provided, uniforms and the civilian attire. How come?

Well, Officers wanting to cut a dash whilst not in uniform could easily order a civilian set of kilt attire whilst ordering a uniform. Sensible really, when getting measured up for the uniform, might as well get a civilian outfit while I am at it, type thing. On both sets of attire the rank and name of the tailors client will be placed discreetly somewhere as a matter of course. It is a completely honest and practical thing to do. Even today some Regiments of the British Army have a very large influence on how their Officers should be attired in some aspects of civilian life. The dark suit, bowler hat, regimental tie and the Swaine Adeney & Brigg brolly is a classic example of this.

There must still be countless thousands of leather, or, canvas suit cases, sporting gun gases, rod cases, fishing reel cases, binocular cases, collar boxes and assorted other civilian goods dotted about the UK and the "Empire" with names and rank of the owners on them, who have now passed on, retired or have got themselves promoted since taking ownership of them.

[OC Richard]

Thanks Jock! I was thinking something like that, that an Army man might have had his usual (military) tailor also make his civilian doublet, as with the example above.

What's interesting to me is that evidently the same thing happened with a sporran maker, as with one of the sporrans above.

Of course Nicol Bros Bankfoot made both civilian and military sporrans for, what, over a century, and RG Lawrie for decades too.

However the vast majority of these Ebay "military officer's" listings have nothing about them whatsoever linking them to the Army; the listings are pure fantasy.

This one was one of the funniest ever, listed on Ebay, as I recall, as a "complete Boer War Scottish Officer's uniform"



There's a lovely Liverpool Scottish Officer's sporran there, almost worth the price of the whole lot. The rest, of course, is pure civilian.

Wrapping the belted plaid around like a long plaid is often seen in such listings.

[OC Richard]

Here's one on now, "WWI Scottish military uniform Royal Highlanders Black Watch" etc etc. None of it is true, as you can see. It's a civilian kilt in Douglas tartan, a child's sporran, and a toy Pakistani bagpipe

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-Scottish.../261909597087?

a photo from the listing

[eagle43172]

5 years ago I bought a jacket listed only in the "Militaria" store as "British Army Jacket, size 40". The photos were clearly of a civilian Argyll jacket so even though I wear a 46, I bought it to use as an example for reference on sport coat conversions. I won the bid and with shipping I paid $25 US. When I received it it fit like a glove (in fact just a wee bit too large, but not noticably so, and it still fits!)
Sometimes the ignorance of the seller plays to our advantage!

[AFS1970]

I think there is another aspect to this ignorance, and that is in some of the design details.

With Saxon dress, the jackets are usually pretty plain and lack anything that makes them stick out. Every few years some designer may get brave and decide that a lapel should be widened or narrowed by 1/8 of an inch, but that is about it. So to anyone not familiar with some of the things commonly found on say a Prince Charlie, it must look pretty military like. Silver buttons, the cuffs, the black piping leading to the buttons, are probably things that have some historical roots in military uniforms but are not now considered military, yet to someone who has never seen such an item it would like that way.

Then you add into it that folks will search eBay for kilts stuff and see what others have called it and call it the same or something similar.

As for listing the wrong tartan, that may be a creature of the dreaded key words. By putting Black Watch into the description, anyone searching for that will come across the listing. that could be either a brilliant sales tactic or someone hoping to use another person's ignorance against them.