A good one

[Father Bill]

See what you dredged up, Steve?

[thescot]

Contrary to popular belief, I am still alive.

At my age, I may look deaf, but I'm still kicking.

[OC Richard]

If something isn't currently practiced it's not a tradition, it's matter of history.

A perfect example of a living traditional thing is language.

People speak of "the ancient Gaelic language" or "modern English" but in fact all the world's languages are the same age.

All languages spoken by living communities today have an unbroken line of evolutionary descent from whatever was being spoken by the rather small band of "anatomically modern humans" we are all descended from. (Humans have less-diverse DNA than other mammals due to Humans going through a severe genetic bottleneck.)

Yet as we know all living languages evolve. Traditional and ever changing, in the manner of all living traditions.

Yes we can go back along that unbroken chain of language forms and pluck out what was being spoken at a specific time and place, like classic Latin. But Latin is spoken by millions today, in its various modern forms. Latin never died, it was never frozen in amber. Rather it continued as an everyday language right down to the present day. Ditto Sanskrit, which is spoken by millions, in its present forms.

Another aspect of tradition, in the form of language: the people growing up with a tradition don't feel "pressure" to follow it, nor are they aware of the "rules".

A toddler has a vocabulary of thousands of words and follows quite complex grammar rules, yet is unaware both of the size of vocabulary and the rules that govern speech. The child is merely mimicking what he hears around him, in order to communicate with others.

It was like that with my Highland Dress when I first started playing pipes in the 1970s. I saw what people wore, saw what the sellers sold, and I bought and wore things. Pressure from dead people wasn't something that ever occurred to me.

[Highland Logan]

To answer Steve's question, I think it's maybe best to keep it as it is.

Currently, the Traditional section of the forum, appears to be defined or self-defined by the members as what appears to be Edwardian. Some might say mid to late Victorian, and I could be inclined to agree. However, the Edwardian era gave us the innovations in and the creation of what would become "modren" evening wear, where if we are honest, most kilt wearers outside of this forum tend to wear their kilts.

The Edwardian era also kept the more informal styles of day wear almost unchanged from the Victorian era. The classic day and evening looks we have can all be traced to this time, and for the past 100 years kilt wearers have for the most part kept to that style.

These eras are marked by the codification of almost everything. From the modren business suit to evening wear, little has changed. Fads come and go. In the end, most continue to find their way back to the "hard" classic traditional look and style. These periods are marked by the start of mass created consumer goods; including textiles, and photography. A person could see what someone else was wearing, and go to the shop and get the same thing.

Maybe a member, new or old fancies white hose for evening. Not really traditional, an old fad maybe; reasons open to debate, but a fad. So a post is created in the Traditional section on white hose. Maybe just let the debate happen. Facts don't care about feelings. I don't feel like anyone here is telling anyone how to dress, unless asked to provide insight. And there is nothing wrong with healthly debate, so long as all parties are polite and honest with each other and of course themselves.And if someone likes white hose for evening wear, then wear them; but you can't turn fish into fowl, regardless of how much you wish it.

If one were looking at forum sections to revise, I would start with "Putting It On Properly" and "How to Accessorize your Kilt". These sections are open to way more; such as who's asking, for what goal, and who's answering. In those sections you could have replies all over the map from traditional to contemporary and beyond. If you are looking at rejigging. Maybe when a member or guest enters "Putting It On Properly", it has links to the correct section they are hoping to style their dress after. At least they would be talking to, and seeing or getting advice from like minded members.

Frank

[Steve Ashton]

To address a comment -

No. I am not looking to change or 're-jig" anything.

Just a discussion to clear my own head.

Let me give a little back story.

You all know that I have run a custom kilt shop for a while now. And I have seen just about everything over the past 20 years.

As my shop is in N. America, most of my customers present very N. American slant on kilt wear. I actually see far fewer of the TCHD style of dress than is represented on this forum. In my experience TCHD is not the norm.

I also see far more guys who wear the kilt, and wear it more more often, than would be the norm in the UK where the kilt is viewed more as special event wear than daily clothing.

So TCHD looks "odd" and "out of place" in comparison to the usual guy that walks through my door.

I have to admit that some of the outfits I see presented as "traditional Scottish kilt wear" here on X Marks, do not seem to fit into either the UK norm or to the N. American norm. Although it does seem to be a distinctly N. American outlook on "Scottish".

And frankly, some border on the "costume". To me it is no wonder that some X Marks members put forth the view that some N. American outfits look like the person is trying too hard, is playing at being Scottish, or is perhaps overthinking the myth of how the kilt "should" or "must" be worn.

I had a group come into my shop recently. They were all dressed "to the 9's" Tweeds, Cromaches, Laird's plaides. The whole TCHD look. They even had accents which were not from where the live.

When I walked out from the back and introduced myself I was treated to the most severe dressing down that I have ever experienced. These guys went on and on about how they had just come from "their Clan" gathering. (A family name most associated with the Scottish borders and not the Highlands.)

They told me at great length how they were sure that the way they were dressed was the only "proper" way to wear the kilt and how much disservice I was doing to "their" traditions by dressing the way that I do on a daily basis.

They all, to a man, stated that they were dressed in the style that their grandfathers would approve of. That their manner of dress had been passed down to them unchanged and proscribed for generations.

To be honest, in my experience, they were not dressed in any fashion I had ever seen in the present day UK, and had only seen very rarely - and only in the context of - his forum, old photos, and once or twice at N. American Highland Games.

Then I ran across the quote I first posted and it just sort of summed up my feelings after being so berated in my own shop.

I have a very hard time reconciling what is presented as TCHD on this forum with what I see daily. I can understand a guy wishing to emulate a style based on old photos. I can understand and agree that anyone should dress in any way that he feels.

But to put forth one look as "the proper", or "the correct" or even "the traditional" way of wearing a kilt just makes no sense to me. It does not fit in with what I see every day. Certainly not what I see when visiting Scotland.

And then to berate someone else for not upholding "their tradition" is, to me, just plain wrong.

So no, my post was not "The Owner" saying that he was changing X Marks to suit his own views. It is just Steve venting.

[Nathan]

Haven't posted in a while. Glad to see the old gang talking about the same thing.

[JohnnyO]

To address a comment -

No. I am not looking to change or 're-jig" anything.

Just a discussion to clear my own head.

Let me give a little back story.

You all know that I have run a custom kilt shop for a while now. And I have seen just about everything over the past 20 years.

As my shop is in N. America, most of my customers present very N. American slant on kilt wear. I actually see far fewer of the TCHD style of dress than is represented on this forum. In my experience TCHD is not the norm.

I also see far more guys who wear the kilt, and wear it more more often, than would be the norm in the UK where the kilt is viewed more as special event wear than daily clothing.

So TCHD looks "odd" and "out of place" in comparison to the usual guy that walks through my door.

I have to admit that some of the outfits I see presented as "traditional Scottish kilt wear" here on X Marks, do not seem to fit into either the UK norm or to the N. American norm. Although it does seem to be a distinctly N. American outlook on "Scottish".

And frankly, some border on the "costume". To me it is no wonder that some X Marks members put forth the view that some N. American outfits look like the person is trying too hard, is playing at being Scottish, or is perhaps overthinking the myth of how the kilt "should" or "must" be worn.

I had a group come into my shop recently. They were all dressed "to the 9's" Tweeds, Cromaches, Laird's plaides. The whole TCHD look. They even had accents which were not from where the live.

When I walked out from the back and introduced myself I was treated to the most severe dressing down that I have ever experienced. These guys went on and on about how they had just come from "their Clan" gathering. (A family name most associated with the Scottish borders and not the Highlands.)

They told me at great length how they were sure that the way they were dressed was the only "proper" way to wear the kilt and how much disservice I was doing to "their" traditions by dressing the way that I do on a daily basis.

They all, to a man, stated that they were dressed in the style that their grandfathers would approve of. That their manner of dress had been passed down to them unchanged and proscribed for generations.

To be honest, in my experience, they were not dressed in any fashion I had ever seen in the present day UK, and had only seen very rarely - and only in the context of - his forum, old photos, and once or twice at N. American Highland Games.

Then I ran across the quote I first posted and it just sort of summed up my feelings after being so berated in my own shop.

I have a very hard time reconciling what is presented as TCHD on this forum with what I see daily. I can understand a guy wishing to emulate a style based on old photos. I can understand and agree that anyone should dress in any way that he feels.

But to put forth one look as "the proper", or "the correct" or even "the traditional" way of wearing a kilt just makes no sense to me. It does not fit in with what I see every day. Certainly not what I see when visiting Scotland.

And then to berate someone else for not upholding "their tradition" is, to me, just plain wrong.

So no, my post was not "The Owner" saying that he was changing X Marks to suit his own views. It is just Steve venting.

Living in the west of Scotland and being a fairly "Traditional" style kilt wearer for some 40 years I'm just always pleased to meet another tartan and kilt wearer. Wear the sett and style you find practical and attractive. The only thing I'd dare to suggest is wear it with respect and affection.
I love my Sinclair tartan and kilts .... and I'm guessing that anyone who makes the commitment in time and money to have a well made kilt or trews shares that affection.
To me the only "wrong" way a kilt can be worn is as fancy dress or to try to raise a laugh. And even that is just my own personal view.
Wear and enjoy.

JohnnyO.
Bring Forrit the Tartan.

[Jock Scot]

Oh dear. Had I been present in your shop Steve, when these so called traditionalists ventured forth! I probably would have started World War Three! I am afraid I could have not stopped laughing.

Yes and for sure the cromach can be handy, yes and for sure the tweed, the kilt, the cromach, the Lairds plaid, the brogues, bonnet et al is seen on occasion and indeed the look is traditional. However, I cannot remember how many times that I have said here, that traditional kilt attire is not all about those afore-mentioned aspects of kilt attire and when worn out of context the effect is more pantomime than tradition.

Dressing in the kilt in a traditional way, is ALL about context and dressing to best effect and it is as easy to overdress as underdress for any given context. Therein lies the real effective expression of traditional kilt attire knowledge. Something these "gentlemen" sadly do not appear to possess.

[Nathan]

Oh dear. Had I been present in your shop Steve, when these so called traditionalists ventured forth! I probably would have started World War Three! I am afraid I could not have not stopped laughing.

Yes and for sure the cromach can be handy, yes and for sure the tweed, the kilt, the cromach, the Lairds plaid, the brogues, bonnet et al is seen on occasion and indeed the look is traditional. However, I cannot remember how many times that I have said here, that traditional kilt attire is not all about those afore-mentioned aspects of kilt attire and when worn out of context the effect is more pantomime than tradition.

Dressing in the kilt in a traditional way, is ALL about context and dressing to best effect and it is as easy to overdress as underdress for any given context. Therein lies the real effective expression of traditional kilt attire knowledge. Something these "gentlemen" sadly do not appear to possess.

This is it exactly. When I attended the 300th Anniversary of the Battle of Glenshiel this June, most of the wreath layers and Clan representatives were dressed in the aforementioned fashion.





It's all about dressing appropriately for the occasion. Not every occasion calls for a bonnet and cromach, for example.

[Jacques]

Certainly hope this group of so called traditional gentlemen were not members of the Rabble, although i'll bet they are familiar with XMarks. As so many of you have posted in the past; the kilt is not a uniform and some difference between one person and the next is to be expected, and desired. Nathan's pics above are a great example. Not "perfect" but very sharp and well turned out. That is exactly one of the looks i am trying to achieve and really like the bonnet of the man in the center. (But day plaids in the city? with beautiful parks throughout, and not a picnic basket among them). i do hope they remembered to remove their bonnets. Cannot believe these men (always safety in numbers no?) would be so simple minded and ignorant. No, wait...

Oh dear, i believe i may have accidentally plagiarized Jock again.